What Would Patton Say?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by Netfotoj, Jul 24, 2007.

  1. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    What would Patton would say about us and our situation today? Listen to this video and find out.

    http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/07/patton-on-the-m.html

     
  2. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Whoa!

    I really enjoy the steyrclub discussions. Smart people, interesting discussions and information. Unfortunately this one is over the top.

    Everyone is in title to his or her opinions, it is a free country, God Bless. The Iraq war, the Afghanistan war, the war on terror.....Everyones has opinions and may agree or disagree. But I beg you, please lets leave it like that.

    But when someone put words in the mouth of a great American Hero, one of the greatest American General, this is over the line.

    As an old Cold War Warrior, I believe, I am entitle without pompous pretension to outrage and contempt to this piece of trash. To compare WWII to the present geopolitical situation is simply schizophrenia (and there is medication for this disease). More than 6 millions Jews got murder and more than 25 millions more from different European countries. More than 400000 Americans lost their life in WWII. The United States were under attack from two military super-powers; Germany Third Reich and the Japanese Empire. These were real treats and not manufacture ones. Men like General Patton stood to the challenge and we should be grateful to them and not use their memories for some present agenda.

    This video is the closest thing to Nazi style propaganda that I have seen in this great country. It is an insult to all of us......and a great American Hero

    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hippler1.htm

    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ ... m#Material

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

    :x

    West01
     

  3. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    I sort of chuckled at the clip. It's a parody. Can't nfoto put up something that isn't approved by the ACLU or CNN?
    "Over the line" and "Nazi style propaganda" sound a bit Stalinist and Iron Curtain-ish in trying to muzzle someone's opinion or desire to direct others to see something pertaining to current affairs (especially in a Pub).
    There are actual debates about some the things that are mentioned with an air of dogma in the reply .
    "The United States were under attack from two military super-powers; Germany Third Reich and the Japanese Empire. These were real treats (sic) and not manufacture (sic) ones. " Does that mean the 1993 WTC and 9/11 attacks were manufactured (and all the other attacks from 1979 thru 9/10/01)?
    More people died in American states on 9/11 than in all of WWII.
    The President of Iran has threatened to kill every Jew in Israel and denys the Holocaust (sounds like a real modern Hitler from my armchair).
    And we are under the explicit threat of an American Hiroshima from a fatwah issued to Osama Bin Laden in which he is allowed under Islamic law to kill 20 million Americans (sounds clearly like the threat of thermo-nuclear attack); in which half the deaths are supposed to be children.
    The fact of the matter is that probably few of us will know the truth before the end of our lives when either the apparent threat turns out to have just been a lot of bluster by a bunch of cave dwellers, or 20 million Americans die on one clear lovely morning from 7 to 10 simultaneous nuclear detonations.
    Marshall your facts against some of the underlying opinions expressed in the parody and demonstrate why we should not agree with the point of view expressed in the clip, rather than arguing to muzzle a point of view.
    [BTW, I did not take it as a besmirching of Patton, a man for whom I have great admiration. Indeed, when I was growing up, I literally heard stories every week about Patton from my father who was in the "Old Man's" 3rd Army and worshipped Patton (and taught me to do the same).]
     
  4. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes Guest

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    Over and over again history repeats itself. Few actually have the presence of mind to realize or care about it. During the entirety of the cold war there was a looming suspicion of Nuclear attack from the USSR. We spent billions on defense, etc etc. Nothing ever happened. Does that mean it cant happen? We're we paranoid? How many ICBM's were pulled out of Russia? I dont have the numbers, but I do know that we are still buying them for missile defense programs. Just because we havent been hit doesnt mean we wont. Hell, the Middle-Easterners scare me a hell of a lot more than the Russians ever could have. Soviets had something to lose. Superpower status, money, power, their lives. ME's have none of this to lose. Muslims believe with complete conviction that they are rewarded in heaven for their deeds. That scares the hell outta me, because belief is the most powerful weapon out there. Because it takes that belief to push that button. Dont think that it cant happen just because it hasnt happened.
     
  5. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Saw this brief report on foxnews.com today, explains who does the voice of Patton.

    I just checked in at youtube: 256,547 views of the Patton video as of this hour.
     
  6. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Anything can be made fun of, it doesn't make it an opinion. I'm sure there is some Jehadist freaks out there making fun at our GI's getting blown away with IED's(sic)......
    NetFotoJ can put whatever he wants....but trolling fest are just not cool..

    You must recognize good propaganda when you see it and the Nazi were the best at it. Propaganda doesn't have to come from government institutions. This is a good example.

    Muzzle someone???? Me have no such power Kimosabe....and don't want to...

    Iron Curtain... I have seen both side of it, funny how it is irrelevant today. If we were behind the iron curtain 30 years ago, all of us on this forum would be washing latrine in some gulag somewhere.

    A debate? Maybe NetfotoJ should reply my post himself, if he actually has an opinion?....I dono!
    A debate is a civilize exchange of opinions and point of view, even if the the parties are in complete disagreement. It has nothing do with we some cheap gimmick that put words in the mouth of an important American figure. It was cute with Fred Astaire and the vacuum cleaner commercial .

    General Patton was leader that led men to battle. Many of them of never came back...many. I my opinion a simple respect to the man is to leave him in his historical context and not in ballistic scam with some irrelevant hysteria.

    Dogma? Thats a religious concept. I believe that would be NetfotoJ realm????

    And I thought I was going Ballistic !!!! Man! "20 millions American die" . Facts? Sounds like something out of "24" or "Alias". You watch to much TV boy... 400000 real dead Americans is not good enough for you! God!...Just Joking, don't take it personally :D

    The thing is SELFDEFENSE is that I totally agree with you! And you have an opinion and a pretty informed one I'm sure. But please leave General Patton alone and due respect. Leave him in his historical context and away from the brain crap....

    One thing thou. Think about it. If the United States and the American people goes bankrupt....Who will fight the Jihadist?


    God Bless your Dad. He was there like my Dad. By the way my Dad is 94, skin thick like steel, sharp as a tack, great sense of humor and he did not find the vid funny...

    Best Regards and Cheers!

    :D

    West01
     
  7. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Totally agree with you brother. But what does General Patton has to do with this? Nothing!.........I agree. lets give the man respect.

    Cheers!

    :D

    West01
     
  8. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Howdi NetfotoJ,

    Have you seen the Paris Hilton Vid on Youtube?

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=k66epna2Sss

    More than 8 millions hits........ its called Brain Roth!

    Cheers!

    :D

    West01
     
  9. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    I'm afraid the American Hiroshma fatwa has been covered by ABC Nes and the Associated Press among others. The main U.S. coordinator has been named as Adnan el Shukrijumah who is on the FBI's Most Wanted List, whom FBI Director Robert Mueller has called "the next Mohamed Atta".
    Gen. Eugene Habiger, former Executive Chief of Strategic Weapons at the Pentagon, said that nuclear terrorism on U. S. soil is "not a matter of if, but when."
    Dr. Graham Allison, director of Harvard University's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs: "Is nuclear mega-terrorism inevitable? Harvard professors are known for being subtle or ambiguous, but I'll try to be clear. 'Is the worst yet to come?' My answer: Bet on it. Yes."
    Bill Keller, editor of The New York Times, said that the only reason for thinking a nuclear attack won't happen is because it hasn't happened yet, calling that "terrible logic."
    FBI Director Robert Mueller said al-Qaida's paramount goal is to detonate a nuclear device that would kill hundreds of thousands of Americans.
    Michael Scheuer, CIA official who headed the agency's bin Laden unit, said the CIA "found that [bin Laden] and al-Qaida were involved in an extraordinarily sophisticated and professional effort to acquire weapons of mass destruction — in this case, nuclear weapons; so, by the end of 1996, it was clear that this was an organization unlike any other one we had ever seen."
    You can read a full translation of the first 2003 American Hiroshma fatwa , which granted al-Qaida permission to kill 10 million Americans with nuclear weapons, in FBI consultant Paul Williams' book "The Day Of Islam".
    Whether this is a terror bluff or for real will be told in the future, but to dismiss this in a cavalier manner is dangerously un/misinformed.
     
  10. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Howdi Selfdefense,

    Now that is the spirit!! :D That is what I call a debate!

    Excellent points Selfdefense and good research!

    Few points if I my share with you...

    As a retired DOE engineer I can tell you that there is nothing subtle with Dr. Allison. :wink: I wouldn't surprised that he had coffee with Dr. Teller. :lol: Good man thou.

    This is personal opinion and please take with a grain of salt. Please, don't believe anything that come from any official CIA reps..They are in the business of information AND disinformation. Remember that CIA employees don't pay social security (and yet have gov. retirement) and are exempt of many social liability that us common citizen have to take responsibilities of. :?

    Like you, I'm sure, I'm a news junky and love to read. I was very lucky to have a career in both aeronautic and energy (something uncommon in engineering). I have meet very smart people and had the privilege to listen to brilliant lecturers at Stanford, Cornell, McGill and other prestigious institutions.

    Some of these lecturers I had the chance and pleasure to see were Dr. John Schwarz and Dr. Brian Greene. Their presentation were just out of this world and very cool if I may say. But one thing I learned is to be very weary of scientists and journalists associated to "Think Tank". They have tendency to be more driven by political polemic than science and facts and I am not afraid to generalized this...

    When it come to the cold war everyone today and mostly the young generation remember the ICBM and the Nuclear Subs,,,but very little else. Everyone seems to have forgotten the battle of ideologies that had real concrete results. Like the invasion of Czechoslovakia, the Vietnam War, Cuba, Indonesia Crisis, the Soviet Afghan war, the Guinea-Bissau war and so on and so on...

    Nuclear treat is real indeed but lets not bark at the wrong tree. First, this may sound crazy to a lot of people but a nuclear bomb is not a real weapon! It is an idea! It use to be called a "Weapon Dissuasion" and today it is called a "Weapon of Terror".....same thing. If a country or an organization like "Al-Quiada" or the "Association of Entitle & Overpaid CEO's " (just kidding....maybe :wink: ) are insane enough to detonate a nuke on American soil, it would be disastrous for their Ideology. America would get medieval on them. All the rules would be out. It would look like what the Roman did to Israel two thousand years ago.

    Here is another thing... Here is a myth! A nuclear bomb is a simple device that even a student could put one together (sic)(sic). Really! If you had enough fissile material in your bedroom for a Nuke. The only thing that you would manage to do is to die from an horrible death called Radiation Sickness. Were every cells in your body are disintegrating! And by the way...I don't believe a CIA agent could make the difference between a Nuke and an Ice cream Machine. Remember they are specialist in "rumors" !:lol:

    It took decades for Pakistan to get their Nukes with the help of Foreign scientists and a lot of cloak and dagger. Israel had the help of France, the US a many brilliant minds at Dimona (thank God). India had the help of Russian scientists and a lot of money. South Africa had the help of..... lets not go there :(

    We all love history for lessons and warning. Here is my take on some...Religious Wars = Bad Idea. Religion are in the realm of long historical context. Nation states have a tendency to come and go very quick. Christian were persecuted by the Roman long time ago. Today, Christian are everywhere and when was the last time you talked to a Roman Centurion (no not the guy with the steel pot on his head). :lol:

    The Muslim had Saladin (a brilliant leader) and with time they almost conquered all of Europe. It took the French (the Frank) to kick their "derrières" at the "Battle of Poitiers" and repel the Muslim Invader. Hey! is this the second time that French save our world? Remember the American revolution...The French Fleet....Arming and training the Minuteman....And today Perrier sold to Coka-Cola....how sad ...Oops! sorry going ballistic here..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

    If we don't play our cards right and we react without thinking long term...our Children's Children could possibly make their nigthy-nite prayer in Arabic...Religions conquered worlds with ideas...not guns.

    And regressing to Nuke again, Sorry for this long tirade..
    History lesson...It was American and British Scientists that help The Soviet with their Hydrogen Bomb! They gave it away!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Spies

    And the worst American spy in history was a FBI agent. God knows what that Robert Hanssen B*tch did to us and who else in the gov. was working like him.

    I am far more concern from a job from the inside with the Goverment than an illiterate Jihadist in Bagdad. For what we know some Gov. people may be working with the terrorist? And this can go up to the White House. History as showned us that everything is possible. We should be watching them...Not them watching us.... :wink: :wink:

    The United States strength is its economy. But in the world of "Globalism" its becoming our weakness.. The Terrorist a fully aware of this and religion is a long term affair...We are trying to bleed the Jehadist in Iraq like the French and German tried to grind down each other in Verdun. The Jehadists are paying mostly with their blood, we are paying mostly with our dollars. Who do you think will run out first? Remember, the draft is history in this Country...

    Pleasure to Chat and Cheers!

    :D

    West01
     
  11. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    You guys are carrying on a very lively debate without my further input, so I'll add only one point. I wasn't trying to insult anyone and to anyone who feels insulted, my apologies. Patton happens to be one of my all-time heroes (and George C. Scott one of the best actors who ever lived, IMHO). I only wish we had a Patton today. Perhaps General Patreus, now in charge in Iraq, will prove to be the man needed at the right time. Only time will tell. :mrgreen:
     
  12. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Thank you for your reply NetfotoJ,

    And my apologies if I sounded to spicy, grumpy and offended you. I guess I am old fashion when it come to the memories of great Americans. New technologies can manipulate everything, and sometime it touch the sensitivity (or lack off) of old fart like me :wink:

    General Patreus has a gigantic task on his shoulder. The pressure must be extraordinary. In many ways the challenge is more complex than the WW2 European conflict. He has to deal a with cultures and traditions that are noble and ancients but also foreigns and unfathomable to us American. He and all our servicemen and women are in extremely volatile theater. Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Al-Quaida, Islamic Jihad are just the tip of the Iceberg. I am truly sorry for people of Muslim fate and their religion being hijacked by these psychopaths Jihadist. I hope that everyone realize that we are all this together.

    American can hope for so much from General Patreus. There are some knots so tight, usually created by politician, that no General can untie. We should all wish him God Speed.

    I find personally the Irak conflict very frustrating and I am sure that many American feel the same. I am afraid that eventually if it stretch on to long, a malaise will establish itself in the United State and we will be caught with our guards down. IMHO this Government is asking to much from our military people.

    Please don't take this like a bleeding heart lament. I know that our military can accomplish extraordinary things and are doing this as I'm writing this. But this conflict has a different twist from the pass American experience. Religious fates have a powerful influence in this theater and if we just decide to jump in this head first with dogmatic goals.... we will be stuck in this for a long, long, long time and the enemy will eventually be bleeding us to death, humanly and financially

    Our President is focusing on Al-Quiada. We must be careful of myopic visions. This can be much more than an organization, their is potential world movement behind all this. The Soviets has Tanks and Bombers that we could match. This is different, religious crusade gets into the minds and souls of people and no military campaign can change that.

    My suggestion to our politicians, both Republican and Democrats is give back the pride to the American Middle Class and trust the American people. The world will walk with us....forward.

    Best Regards and Cheers!

    West01

    :D
     
  13. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    The pivotal points in the plausibility of thermo-nuclear threat are:
    Russian and Georgian audits of former Soviet "backpack" bomb inventories ran between 40 and 80 missing, many of them from storage areas in Islamic former-Soviet "stans".
    On September 7, 1997, during the CBS "Sixty Minutes" show, former Russian National Security Adviser General Aleksandr Lebed claimed that the Russian military had lost track of more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs,
    measuring 24 x 16 x 8 inches which had been distributed among special GRU intelligence units.
    In testimony before the Congressional Military Research and Development Subcommittee on October 1, 1997, Lebed stated the bombs could be detonated by one person with 30 minutes preparation, as long as they had been almost-continuously hooked to an electricity source.
    In front of the same Committee on October 3, 1997, Russian scientist Alexei Yablokov (former environmental advisor to Russian President Boris Yeltsin and member of the Russian National Security Council) corroborated Lebed's testimony.
    In a hearing in the Military Research and Development Subcommittee held by Rep. Dan Burton on January 24, 2000, former military and GRU agent, Stanislav Lunev, said nuclear suitcase bombs may have been pre-positioned in NATO countries during the Cold War. Col. Lunev (who was in the federal witness protection program at the time of his testimony) used a cover as a reporter for the Russian news agency Tass for 3 years during which time he scouted such sites in the U.S. According to Lunev, the number of “missing” nuclear devices claimed by General Lebed was almost identical to the number of strategic targets upon which those bombs would be used in accordance with the GRU plan as he knew it.
    When we kicked Bin Laden out of Afghanastan we found documents and computer files that showed without doubt that Al Qaeda had many nuclear scientists (especially former Soviet nuclear force and GRU agents) on its payroll.
    Fast forward to 2007 when a spate of Polonium-210 incidents occurred just before the supposed semi-dud nuclear test in N. Korea attended by a spate of Iranian nuclear scientists. The only currently-existing nuclear weapons that I am aware of that still use a Polonium-Beryllium nuclear trigger are the "suitcase" and somewhat larger "bespoke" nuclear devices. The size of the "disappointingly small" seismic signature of the 2007 N. Korean nuclear test is consistent with the signature of a refurbished "suitcase". (Although I have only heard one report at this time on our atmospheric tests over N. Korea after the test, the result I heard was, you guessed it, elevated levels of Polonium-210).
    In such a situation where there is a credible massive existential threat to our economy and society, Type I errors must be guarded against above all other considerations. That is, assuming a threat does not exist when in fact it does exist, is potential suicide.
    That is why we need to be on offense and that is why we cannot walk off the battlefield and expect the danger to be reduced or eliminated.
    It is the world that Carl Sagan mused about when he supported the creation of the SETI Project (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) to have as one of its major objectives to see if other civilizations had made it significantly beyond the discovery of nuclear energy and had still survived.
    It is the world that we and our children have the misfortune to find ourselves in, and to confuse it with Vietnam or any other regional conflict of the pre-nuclear-proliferated past is to miscalculate in the most greviously dangerous way. This scenario can only tolerate errors of the Type II variety.

    Cheers,
    SD
    P.S. When you add the element of open borders and restraints on domestic law enforcement in preventing terror attacks you have a massive vulnerability unprecedented in American (and probably world) history.

    P.P.S. A good summary of the specifics of the "American Hiroshima" was given by FBI consultant Dr. Paul Williams who lays out the details in his book "Day Of Islam" (where you can find a translation of the first nuclear fatwa granted to bin Laden in 2003 where he was authorized under Islamic law to kill 10 million Americans (half of whom were specified to be children)). Williams recounts facts which lead him to the conclusion that nuclear attack is the prime objective of Al Qaeda:
    FBI Director Robert Mueller confirmed in an interview that al-Qaida intends to detonate a nuclear device that would kill millions of Americans. He said that the threat is so real he lies awake at night thinking about the effects of such an attack.
    Bin Laden's first purchase of nuclear material dates back to his days in the Sudan. In 1993, he purchased a canister of weapons-grade uranium from black-market agents, including a Sudanese official, who obtained the material from Valindaba, a nuclear manufacturing facility near Pretoria in South Africa. The canceled check for this transaction remains in the Alec File, the file on bin Laden at the CIA according to CIA agent Michael Scheuer, who headed the agency's bin Laden unit.
    Upon his return to Afghanistan, bin Laden made additional purchases of off-the-shelf nukes and nuclear material from the Chechen rebels, the Russian mafia, and various sources in the Ukraine, including international arms dealer Semion Mogilevich. On one occasion, Mogilevich says he provided bin Laden with twenty kilos of weapons-grade 85% enriched uranium-236. These sales have been verified by British, Israeli, Russian, Saudi and Pakistani intelligence, and confirmed by The London Times, the BBC, and U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix.
    Ayman al-Zawahirii has been quoted as saying that such weapons were available from the former Soviet Union for $10 million.
    In the Afghan caves of bin Laden near Kandahar, U.S. troops found a canister of uranium-238 and at Turnak Farm (Al Qaeda underground laboratory near Kandahar) CIA para-military found jars of yellow cake and canisters of uranium-238.
    On Oct. 11, 2001, the Israeli Mossad arrested a Pakistani agent who tried to smuggle a plutonium implosion device into Israel at the Ramallah checkpoint. The agent later died of radiological poisoning.
    Dr. Sultan Bashiruddin, the former Chairman of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, and Dr. Chaudry Abdul Majid, the chief engineer for the A.Q. Khan Research Laboratory were arrested and admitted under interrogation that they met with bin Laden, al-Zawahiri, and other al-Qaida members several times to offer technical assistance on the group's "Manhattan Project." They testified that bin Laden had obtained enough weapons-grade material from the Ukraine to manufacture "bespoke nukes" (bombs with explosive power over 10 kilotons), and that many other scientists and technicians from Pakistan were on bin Laden's payroll.
    The most detailed plan of the American Hiroshima, calling for the detonation of seven nuclear devices in seven major U.S. cities, was found on the laptop of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, al-Qaida's military operations chief, who was arrested in Karachi on March 2, 2003.
    The commander of the American Hiroshima is Adnan el-Shukrijumah, a naturalized American citizen, who is on the FBI's Most Wanted List with a $5 million reward.
    Coincidentally, a Pakistani with ties to al-Qaida recently died of radiological poisoning in Kearny, N.J.
    Captured senior Al Qaeda member Sharif al-Masri said that several of bin Laden's nukes had been forward- deployed to Mexico for transport into the U.S. by Latino street gangs. This report was confirmed by Pakistani Hamid Mir, the only journalist to interview bin Laden and al-Zawahiri since 9/11. Mir said that the weapons had arrived in the U.S. and were being readied for the next attack in the U.S.
     
  14. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Howdi Selfdefense,

    Very interesting and unsettling facts. Nuclear brinkmanship is reality and a denial of this would insanity. Agree....But having said that here some points...

    Please remember this expression; "Weapon of Terror" and the concept of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" . The simple idea can actually have far more power than the device itself.

    This is unsettling report but also a very controversial one. The Soviets were recognize during the cold war and confirmed after the collapse USSR by western intelligence more for their "Dooms Day" approach when it came to nuclear arsenal and Bio-Chem weapons (more on this later). They built high yield devices and they couldn't care less about their size and weight since they had the vectors.

    Smaller devices like tactical nukes were also part of the Soviets arsenal. They came in various forms and size for various vectors. For example ASW, AA and Battlefield Interdiction. and so on. During the cold war, for disinformation purpose many of the smaller Nukes (size of large refrigerator) came under the euphemist "Suitcase Nukes".

    Coll. Stanislav Lunev an alledge defector from the good old Lenin's GRU is also a very controversial character. He made many claims in his famous books that were very scary but also very.....strange and bizarre. One thing is certain about the GRU is they are an obscure organization but yet, are very well known in one specialty.....Blackmail!

    Lt. Gen. Alexander Lebed was a bigger than life character. He became a politician on the post USSR's Russia and was a so call Russian Nationalist. He died in an Helicopter crash that was considered by many Russian suspicious. Was the man credible.....who knows?

    One thing is certain about all these allegations. The timing of all this flurry of mini-nukes statements came when the USSR was collapsing, thus highly questionable. Also ....the physic just didn't jive...

    Please check this web site it has interesting stuff;
    http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/week/020923.htm

    "Polonium-Beryllium nuclear trigger" and "bespoke" nuclear devices. These are very old Nukes Technologies my friend and mostly associated to Enriched Uranium device (Manhattan project style) and dirty bomb. In 50 years, the science and engineering attained by modern nuclear power countries, has greatly advance and are far more sophisticate. I'm sure you understand that a casual discussion of the engineering details of a modern nuclear device is highly inappropriate ....

    The important question is ; Is their such thing as Miniature Nuclear Device. The answer is...actually are ; It doesn't matter....No....and Yes.

    Please let me qualify......

    "It doesn't matter" if exist or not. Remember the concept of "Weapon of Terror". If you manage to convince an adversary that you have a sneaky secret and highly available weapon of mass destruction even if it doesn't exist. You may have actually have better results against your enemy than the real weapon could cause. You create confusion, paranoia, and opportunistic elements that create distraction and squandering of resources. In other words...your enemy is almost on his knees. :lol:

    One would say...Why we did not use the same tactics against the Soviets? Because at the time they didn't have a free press and a campaign of "Terror Weapon" disinformation just couldn't be effective. Al-Quaida would love to have a mini-nuke. But they don't have to. They just have to create the appearance of seeking for one and "Voila". Its the idea that counts... Why do you think they left so much evidences of a nuke & bio program behind in Afghanistan and we can't find the man.....remember...the idea is the weapon. 8)


    "No". Just imagine...An ex-Soviet general says "we have recently place mini-nukes hidden in hundreds of your American Cities" and the American General says "Hum... way ahead of you, actually your bed in Moscow is one of them" :twisted: . What would this accomplish....Nothing. I doesn't make any sense. Nuclear arsenal were mostly saber rattling during the cold war. They were big and mean and both side wanted to show the other that they had them. Both side tested them for decades and so much that they had to stop to avoid of blowing one in their respective face. By the way it almost happened on both side. No Joke. It was a nightmare for the nuclear power energy business since background radiation change would create false alarms. Why would the Soviets want to blowup a neighborhood in Detroit or Atlanta? When we certainly would know were they came from (certainly not Dr. Evil) and wallop them back with 10MT warheads. It just doesn't fit in the cold war equation. Its called vapoware :wink: .

    "Yes" now here is the scary parts....Micro Nuclear Devices do exist. But they are not design to kill anyone! They are EMP devices. The purpose is disrupt communication and electronics devices. Their effectiveness have greatly diminish lately because of fiber optic infrastructure and the internet. But if use carefully....remember "Its the Economy Stupid". Unfortunately these gizmo's are the venues of both Government and Private Parties....

    Please Selfdefense, lets not confuse the Pakistan Nuke program with Al-Quaida. On my last post I mentioned "cloak and dagger" when it came to Pakistan. On the bright side we have American experts monitoring the Pakistan program as we speak. No evidence that any Pakistan experts are linked or have sold anything to Al-Quaida.......Yet,,,But this Pakistan, United Nations, African Uranium Mines triangle doesn't smell good...


    But now lets talk about really scary stuff. :twisted:

    I have little knowledge of physic and engineering...,,but my wife is a Biology expert. Boy she can describe you some very scary stuff.

    In 2001 there was two waves of terror attack! The WTC/Pentagon attack and the Anthrax attack. Many Postal workers and innocent civilians were murder in this one. Do you remember their names? What happened here? They called it a media hysteria at the time. The American Media. Inc office attack was related to some strange personnel vandeta of some individual. Really? But then these letter started to appear all over the country. I know personally two individual that have received one of these letters at my old job. And no, it did not matter if you were conservative or liberal? How Large was the attack? Many politician. government agencies and private citizens received these Anthrax letters. How does something so big like this disappear so fast from the radar screen.

    Al-Quaida left videos of animals killed in cruel ways with Sarin and other unknown agents.

    When the USSR collapse, some of the secrecy of their Bio-Warfare program was lifted. To the world horror it was discovered that the USSR had a vast program that was light years ahead of anything the western (including the US) had conceived. The Soviets had developed highly effective dispersing ICBM warhead. Highly contagious Bio agents that survive extreme temperatures and time. Crossgenic diseases between the common cold and turbo charge small pox for example. The Soviets manage to mask the symptoms of their super bug with common disease so medical personnel wouldn't realize until it is too late what was the fate of the victims.

    What happened with this? The Russian claim that the program was completely dismantle. To many accidents and they acknowledge that they did create the "doomsday weapon" it was not an idea anymore. Most of all the Russian scientist involved with this were whisked away in highly paying job with different names in Europe, the United States, Australia, Canada, Japan. It was a matter of world security. Many are in California my home state working for prestigious institutions. My Wife has cross path with some of these Scientist because of her line of work. They are real.

    Notice that no pompous ex-soviet Officer or KGB Intel people never leaked any information about this program. Today, The Russian government is trying to backtrack denied it never happened. They are not fools, they know when the "idea" can not be controlled.

    The rumor is that Al-Quaida is not interested in these weapons...they are unclean....not interested? Really...


    The Best and Cheers!

    :D

    West01
     
  15. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Here's a photo of his nibs: [​IMG]

    And his info, courtesy of Ace of Spades HQ: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/196541.php

     
  16. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Howdi Netfotoj,

    Thank you for this post and a reminder that there are monsters out there that want to hurt our nation. I just wish the 6 o'clock news would refresh the collective minds of all American about these people and focus less on the last escape of Lindsey Lohan.

    It is also important not to repeat the "Failure of Imagination" about an attack American soil.
    American people and the American Security Institutions must remember that most simple plot could have the most devastating results.

    9/11= Box cutters + Airliners hijack + crash in the WTC. This is not stuff from a Science Fiction movie were Bruce Willis will arrive just in time to miraculously cut the right wire on the timer of some 10lbs Samsonite 10 MT hydrogen bomb. By the way, why are the timer are always some has large red LED's? :wink:

    Unfortunately the 9/11 was diabolically simple.

    As a reminder and to the credit of the British Authority and their vigilance

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2636099.stm
    http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/ricin.htm

    This plot had the potential to create one of the largest Terrorist mass murder in history, A somber thought...

    West01
     
  17. squirrelpotpie

    squirrelpotpie Premium Member

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    "...Wake Up!"

    thanks for the post Netfoto, did not find the video offensive in so much as it is a parody of a george c scott interpretation of Patton from a 20th century fox movie.

    found the ensuing commentary much more interesting

    you can probably find my picture under complacency and procrastination in the dictionary but find Self Defense's marshalling of facts to support the notion that terrorists have clearly demonstrated a desire to obtain nuclear weapons technology and expressed a williness to utilize it against targets in the US as quite compelling.

    where there is a will there is a way

    West's comments are also interesting and we share a concern for our military presence and continued expenditure of vast amounts of resources in Iraq.

    Wish I could buy the notion that it is about the idea of having nuclear technology and the corresponding prestige/influence that drives al qaeda and the iranian theocracy but I can't help believing that they are fully capable of using any means without compunction.

    Fanatics who are willing to blow up school girls and who see armageddon as a good starting point for a new world order are a real cause for alarm.
     
  18. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    "..where there is a will there is a way.."
    ------------------------------------------------
    That is the critical point.
    The Soviet leaders had the way, but I don't believe they had the will (they wanted their vodka and nooky, not suicide).
    The terrorists appear to have the will, the only question is the way.
    The most immediate way would be buy Soviet small nukes that appear to have gone missing in the mid-90s.
    Next would be to buy larger nukes from major nations (N. Korea, China, Pakistan's ISI/A.Q. Kahn leakage).
    The longer-term ultimate solution would be for the Jihadists to create their own large nukes (Sadaam Hussein's Islamic Bomb project that he shifted to Libya after the 1991 Gulf War, and the current Iranian nuclear development program).
    We currently spend between 4% - 5% of our GDP on the military at the beginning of WWIII :? . There are hundreds of billions of dollars thrown away on things that are less than one-millionth as important to our continued survival as this battle against Radical Islam.
     
  19. West01

    West01 New Member

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    True indeed and irrational will becomes delusion.

    IMHO the mere existence of the Iranian nuclear program is evidence that there is no, stolen or purchased from the Soviets, "Suitcase Nukes" hidden in some dark cave somewhere. Why would Iran bring itself to bankruptcy for a Nuke program when they just could buy what they want at a bazaar somewhere....???

    The link between Al-Quaida and Iran is not clear. There is this Sunni and She'a divide after all. But Iran has clearly supported International terrorists organizations. The government of Iran is promoting anti-USA, anti-Europe, anti-Semitic and anti-Christian policies. The Iranian people are victims of this government but most important our troops are direct targets of this Iranian crusade in Irak.

    I agree with you guys. Even with the absence of micro-nukes, Terrorist proxy groups would not hesitated bringing a "Trinity" type nuclear device at our door steep. Their are many vectors for this. Containers, cargo ships and airplanes, tanker....heck they'll carry it in ten different shipments for assembly at arrival. In this global economy and the US as the primary consumer...you know what they say "All road leads to Rome".

    Cheers!

    West01

    :D
     
  20. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    "Why would Iran bring itself to bankruptcy for a Nuke program when they just could buy what they want at a bazaar somewhere....??? "
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Because different types of nukes serve different purposes; and the way to be the leader of the pack in your region of the world is to be a self-sufficient nuclear weapons producer.