War with Iran and the Consequences of such

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by MrApathy, Feb 18, 2007.

  1. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    Iran seems to be destabalizing some with recent bomb attacks in southeast. wouldnt be suprised if US had some CIA involvement in fact US has quite a bit of websites,radiostations and tv setup for Iran discussion and promotion of Democracy in Iran. but China and Iran having a huge deal for oil china could step into the war if things got worse and oil production or delivery got interrupted.

    Iran surrounded with Afganistan and Iraq both occupied by the US.

    things could go south big time if China stepped in, China could ruin the US economy as they have lots of US dollars and US debt they seem to want to dump the dollar and collect the debt which could be crushing. other actions could include cutoff of advanced goods and stealing the Intellectual Property then using all the US invested production facilities to make advanced goods for themselves and the US enemies. leaving the US left with crapload of advanced work that would need to be done and at an expensive cost which companies decided to go cheap on and move into china.
    probably be raining people on WallStreet

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 387140.htm
    http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/inv ... 140049.asp

    Iran seems determined to build nukes and an insane president that seems to be hellbent on nuking israel off the face of the earth. also seems to wants to fulfill armageddon and end times to restore Babylon and fulfill prophecy.

    Russia flexing quite a bit of power lately and seems to be stepping up arms production they even threatened to leave the arms treaty that ended the cold war
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... id=2877144
    Russia has a hand on a supply of oil/gas to Northern Europe and has turned it off periodically.

    Iran sandwiched and not many places for Al Qaeda to go not so bad. have mixed feelings on Imperialism it wasnt nice when the British was are occupiers. horribly ironic British also occupied the land that became Iraq back in 1916-1920's and the US and British are occupying it again.

    Imperialism has done some good in Germany and Korea though is not total peace in Korea just an armistice. Korean would like reunification much like Germans wanted it.
    then again the US has billions in Debt from such ventures that seem will never be paid off.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_debt

    Back home
    Democrats dont allow drilling in Alaska, No new Oil refineries not even in Death Valley, No new nuke plants then they accuse Bush of having no Energy plan.

    [​IMG]

    Democrats in previous elections kept saying they have a plan and still havent released it just total irrational opposition and unhealthy divisiveness they seriously dont care about the troops they are staunchly antiwar for reasons probably requiring a bong hit or unintelligable thinking.

    [​IMG]

    media that keeps the information short to soundbites on tv and radio then sharp criticism with few details which can often give wrong impression easily.
    mixed messages all over the place. information disinformation.
    what we need is a more open form of government with no secrets and power more divided than it currently is.
    was a good thread over at thefiringline.com legal and political section called if you could change government what would you do.
    http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236654

    road to hell is paved with good intentions. would like to think doing whats easy is probably not the right thing. today alot of people are all about doing whats easy or expedient. hell even the Amish have given in some.

    after reading the following and knowing whats going on it you should have a headache or feeling of nausea or pukeyness. the following knowledge could branch a variety of thought pathways and responses which has to do with variances of dna,education input,processing.

    quite an enigma
     
  2. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Lordy, Lordy, Mr. A. Reading the news does not give one great cause for optimism these days, do it?

    I agree that China is most likely going to be our next big enemy, but Russia is surely trying to regain that place and God knows, we've got enough other enemies already with Iran and all the other towel-headed Islamic fascists.

    Here's a totally new wrinkle that could change everything. Have you heard about the possibility that Israel may have found oil, both in the Dead Sea area and offshore of Tel Aviv in their territorial limits in the Mediterranean?

    I read this on Hal Lindsey's website the other day:

    http://hallindsey.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74&Itemid=28

    Wouldn't that blow the lid off the Mideast powderkey? If Israel had oil, there'd be even more reason for invading and "wiping her off the face of the earth" as Iran and most other Arab nations are already vowing to do.

    Ezekiel 38 may be knocking on the door. And when that happens, all hell breaks loose, literally. Perilous times indeed.
     

  3. sewerman

    sewerman Premium Member

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    yeah but i don't think china wants to ally themselves with a couple of million screaming rabid moslems.
    from what i can see china is way to intelligent to do that!
     
  4. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    Saudis in number of ways are just as Bad as Iran

    think in terms of the Movie Dune based on Frank Herberts book.

    replace spice melange with Oil and power.

    the spice allowed the navigator guild to pilot ships through space covering great distances. oil and power has made life easier its allowed commerce and trade with different continents before that it was sail boats and wind power that or bunch of people rowing ala Vikings.

    the spice increased the length of life.
    again oil and power has made life easier we have seen a medium level income grow and enjoy a nice life so has china recently
    large 6.5 billion population on the planet and they are living longer in most places.

    china is the worlds second largest oil consumer the US is the first.
    we have 350million they have 1 billion.

    take away middle income group put it in the lower bracket increase inability to get goods,services and youll see any state or country in atleast civil unrest next would be riots,rebellion or war.

    1776?
    taxation and tariffs under British occupation with no effective or powerfull representation. Didnt make things rosy for colonialist.

    then picture how dependant we are on various electric and i.c.e. fuel today and what you would do if it got interrupted ruining the many creature compforts we enjoy in the US restricting those compforts only to the wealthy. remember the long lines at the fuel pump after 9/11 and gouging? seen a good amount of inflation in prices of all goods all over due to fuel cost. sadly those prices havent receded due to lower cost of fuel.

    power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely

    chinese authored art of war
    they also have a set of documents called unrestricted warfare
    they have severe energy shortages
    the US has energy shortages during real hot and cold days energy companies have deals with tenets of large buildings when it gets to hot or cold and Heaters and Coolers use too much energy they have the building shorten hours to conserve energy. china faces that daily regardless of the temperature.
     
  5. squirrelpotpie

    squirrelpotpie Premium Member

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    Wow, Mr Apathy,

    So many good points, so little time.

    Like the Dune Spice : Arab Oil analogy, can't help but think Herbert had it in mind when he was writing the Dune books.

    Am not too worried about the Chinese, (other than their continued rise as a world economic power and the impact of that on us). Was brought up to believe that China was a Communist country, but that view changed in 1984 when attending the Worlds Fair in New Orleans and being stunned to see that virtually everything they had on display was for sale. Deng(?) really got them heading in a different direction and I now see them as a capitalist country with a one party government and an oligarchic leadership. Would not want to trade living here for living there but not so sure we have any real choices come election time either.

    The supreme court case that used imminent domain to force the transfer of privately held land to Wal-Mart certainly echoed a Chinese policy of forcing people off their land to make way for business interests. Neither government's decision shows much respect for individual rights.

    The Chinese are not all that fond of religious fanatics and would happily do business with whoever could supply them with the oil they need. Not sure how far along the Iran to China pipeline project is but they certainly have a vested interest in maintaining relations with whoever is in charge in Iran, as you have pointed out.
     
  6. QPluralisT

    QPluralisT Guest

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    Just a few quick comments,

    While I'm a bit too lazy to look up the numbers again, China (PRC) has historically exhibited a strong degree of isolationism and the concept of being involved in an external conflict would be the last thing the PRC would want. They do not even want diplomatic involvement in the North Korea situation and have been the main proponent for bi-lateral talks.

    As you state, a war with PRC would be very disruptive to our economy and our way of life, but wouldn't war be equally if not more damaging to the Chinese standard of living? Thus, a direct conflict between the PRC and the United States would be Mutual Economic Destruction (MED).
    --------------

    Yes the Iranian President is a very "interesting" character, but what has he actually done for Iran? Very little, and this is especially disgraceful for a President that was elected to initiate economic reform. Rhetoric doesn't feed hungry mouths, and like Americans, Iranians vote with their pocket books. While undoubtedly the next Iranian President will be just as volatile (and hopefully have an easier name to say than Ahmadinejad :D )

    In comparison, Venezuela's Hugo Chavez has done great things for his people all the while spitting out (very contradictory to his actions) rhetoric. People generally care less about what their leaders say than what they do.

    On another note about Iranians, according to the DoD and http://icasualties.org/ less than 8% of the total Coalition forces killed have been by Shi'ites and I believe 4% of the total wounded. The rest have been by Sunni groups (Al Qaeda, Ex-Baathist) whom as you alluded to, are funded by Saudi Arabia. After all, we are supporting the formation of a Shi'ite dominated government in Iraq, Shi'a are mostly happy campers at the moment.

    ----------------------
    The Alaskan Wildlife Refuge is not a sustainable answer to our energy dilemma, so why bother? Although many who oppose drilling in Alaska (especially those in Washington) are highly misinformed of why it's wrong, that does not make drilling a viable alternative. Yes, we can clear areas for drilling without causing major environmental harm. Yes, we can extract oil without destroying the environment. The only thing we cannot do is safely and cost effectively transport the oil to areas where it can be refined. If it's unnecessary and too costly to do it right, why on earth would we want to do it?

    I have seen nothing to support the concept of Democrats opposing nuclear energy. I could possibly see a few Democrats have issues with building more Light Water Reactor plants as they are terrorist targets and produce tons of waste that won't be safe for 10,000 years. However the liquid metal plants would be a great alternative; they don't contribute to global warming either so everyone wins. :)

    I don't understand how calling for an alternative plan to our current Iraq strategy is more divisive than calling one's opposition drug abusers and inept. While Democrats have not formed a unified platform to the solution to Iraq, the Republicans (as mandated by the people of the United States) have produced an equally disastrous plan. On a personal note, perhaps admitting that no one has a clear and definite path to victory in Iraq at this time is a definite first step towards solving the crisis?
     
  7. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Whoa!

    The coffee is strong this morning. I guess it is my turn to take off....(ranting)

    Good point Squirrel but with all due respect I think Frank Herbert “Dune” “Circa 1965” was using the “dope” metaphor. Since Dune has a millions of sequels now, maybe that metaphor has shift since. Its funny when fantasy & Sci-Fi books are use in a conversation to make a point, the meaning of the story always shift the subject of the discussion (i.e. Interpretation). Whatever happened to “1984”, the gloomy and dark world of George Orwell. I guess nobody cares anymore as long there is some “97 Octane” to fill up the Humvee..

    My favorite is still “Fahrenheit 451”. One can only love when the Government (aka Corporation) has monopoly of ideas and ideologies....Humm..

    Oil and Gas in Israel. This urban myth always gives me a headache. Please lets stick to fact and reality...as much as possible... :lol:

    http://www.aneki.com/gas.html

    As far as Iran is concerned, I think the word “distraction” is the best to describe the situation. Machiavelli's prince is alive and well. To add to the mess there is the religion aspect (on all the sides) is certainly not helping. No war or conflict were ever resolved under these circumstances. One can only hope that a sort of “detente” can somehow establish itself.

    This brings me to the old “Cold War” .... haa! Nostalgia. A noble adversary and the challenge of ideologies. It also brought the nuclear “air pin trigger” the biggest bluff of all time. The Cold War brought the most powerfully weapon of all time: The Middle Class.
    Nope (yet this is an affirmation), it is not the ICBM's or The Statements of a President that brought the mighty USSR down on its knee but the humble “Middle Class”.

    The “Middle Class” is dangerous weapon thought. It requires accountability from its Government, a certain level of social regulations to protect it against internal corrupted social infection and something call a good “Quality of Life”. :wink:

    After the “Cold War”, our good government is swiftly working on disarmament by dissolving the middle class. Many technique are use like: unabashing free trade, disintegration of safety net, uncontrolled illegal immigration and so on and so on. Actually, our great government will even lowered itself to take side with large corporations that illegally dump product on our market (for i.e. WallyMart) and imprison Border Patrol Officer for doing their job. This process transcend the political parties. It sure make us feel better....Enough of this crazy talk lets get back to Oil.

    Qpluralist, I agree with you. Alaska oil is just a band-aid and if exploited it will only go in the pocket of big oil and most likely not in the tank of our pick-up truck. This just another distraction yet again.

    About Nuclear Energy. This is one of my favorite subject since I have a useless MSE degree in it! Ya, I know I should had become a lawyer instead (Thats what my wife reminds me). People,,,, nuclear energy is just a temporary source of energy....a century and a half at best. After you get nothing except a bunch of nasty radioactive waste. It is clear that Nuke Power is a necessary evil but it has it place in our Aircraft Carriers and Submarines not to help us washing our socks and undies and play Nitendo games.

    People make to much of a big of the oil question. Here is my recommendations: We should all buy the largest gas guzzler we can fin (as many of them). Max all your credit cards (as many as possible). Triple and quadruple mortgage your house. Buy as much gas as possible and burn it, yep, burn it, BBQ it, bond fire...heck ...in your kitchen sink. One day we will wake-up and sh*t.... That's call making a deal with the Devil. For those religious folks out there, yep! Satan is already running the show. And with touch of fundamentalist we have the perfect Sunday (that is why we American are overweight). :lol:

    Oil is a problem. But please don't blame it on China, Iran or the planet formally known as Pluto. Its is an American Problem.

    As far China is concerned. Please check the numbers... They have no incentives to create trouble. They need us and we need them (since we don't manufacture anything!). This a hard pill to swallow. But America hasn't still figure out its role in all this. We are the great consumer. Bring it on, we will digest it.

    Amadinejhad, Chavez, Hey guys , do you smell the wonderful work of the CIA here. Since Osama is (I guess) off the payroll, the CIA must have plenty of job opening these days.

    Oops.. it time for a second cup of coffee.

    See ya!

    Lets keep and eye on our the second amendment.

    West01
    :D
     
  8. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    try reading
    Sun Tzu Art of War and Unrestricted Warfare

    who would rebound faster from MED Mutual Economic Destruction?
    the country with manufacturing plants or without?
     
  9. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Being there, read that.....

    We are in a pickle, aren't we.

    :D

    West01
     
  10. Sure, we could airstrike them back into the stone age, but we need to pick the time of our attack with great care.

    We need to secure Iraq better than it is now, disarm the militias that Iran has considerable influence over, and once that is accomplished redeploy our troops to the boarder area with Iran.

    If we just pick up and attack Iran without being 100% prepared in terms of securing Iraq we're going to get a lot of people killed that didn't need to be.
     
  11. Heat

    Heat Guest

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    I got a better idea lets start airstriking every country that disagrees with anything the US says.... :D
     
  12. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Amen to this MinisterofD.

    It is pretty clear by now that Iran is aware of this and they will make as much trouble for us in Iraq as possible. That is why ...(drum roll) we should partition Iraq...protect our Kurds and Turkmans friends (give them the country that they deserve and fought for), then let Iraqis Sunnis and Shi'ite get at each other throats and get the heck out of there. This will keep the Iranian busy for a while.

    And then lets play our Ace's. That is Pakistan and Afghanistan, Iran neighbors of the East. Launch air strikes from there. Anyone think that these countries would be game...who knows...Were are the European in all this!

    The fact is, America would be all alone and these stupid plans would simply not work. We would be stuck there for decades (huh that sound like Iraq) and America economy would start to look like what my Grand Mother saw in the thirties. We would accumulate a huge dept and the world would look at the Euro as a more viable currency. This is the making of a "has been" country. Oh..the Chinese would love this.

    Finally, lets not mentioned of a potentially massive Arab exodus and immigration. We just need this...Oh yeah!

    The Iranian nuclear program is spread all over the country. They have learned the lesson from Osirak. The facilities are heavenly fortified and it will need more than air strikes. It will need massive ground and sea works to divert the Iranian army. Massive airborne support for the demolition engineers team and the capture of all the fissile materials (yeah! we want this to fall in the hand of the terrorist do we).

    Please, remember that Iran (not like Iraq 5 years ago) is now at its prime. The price of oil is to the max and our friend from China and Russia have sold them some of their most modern weapons.

    The days of a surgical strike is (almost) gone and anyway it would just delay the unavoidable. Our dear President was to busy chasing imaginary WMD in Iraq so he could justified his Haliburton and friends contracts. Our Leader capital gain is long gone and what a waste.

    But here is the challenge; the world must stop the Iranian nuclear program. This is a country that have one of the largest oil and natural gas reserve in the world. They have more than enough energy to create a first world economy. There is no rational or reasons for Iran to invest in a costly nuclear program at this stage unless it wants to build Nukes.

    At this time with the present Iran relation with the rest of world this is simply unacceptable.

    So what to do? The time for sanctions is over. Offer Iran a deal they can refuse (yeah right. sic). The world will have to go all the way and soon.

    That is why the problem is political and not military. George Bush Senior in the early nineties managed to pull this out with Kuwait and Iraq. Unfortunately this may have to wait for our next President. Who ever it will be will have his or her work cut-out.

    The clock is running.

    Cheers

    :D
    West01
     
  13. squirrelpotpie

    squirrelpotpie Premium Member

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    um guys, uh war is bad.

    War with Iran is a bad idea and should be avoided and not be seen as an inevitable necessity. No one wants to see Iran acquire nuclear weapons and share them with folks that don't have our best interests at heart.

    However, the "Bush Doctrine" of attacking countries believed to have weapons of mass destruction and a willingness to use them against us is really bad foreign policy. Even former president Ford did not think that a country's possession of WMDs was a justifiable pretext for invasion.

    The invasion of Iraq set a terrible and hypocritical precedent. If possession of WMDs and a perceived willingness to use them becomes accepted as sufficient cause for the violation of sovereignty and armed intervention by international forces - than we are living in a glass house my friends.

    We should hold people and nations accountable for their actions, not for what we think they might do. Yes, there is a time when a clear and present danger may compel action but that time has not yet arrived.

    I suspect most of the Iranians love their children just as much as we love ours.
     
  14. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Alleluia! Indeed and war is blight on humanity. My dad guarded Chinese prisoners during the Korean War. He use to say "These guys were just like us. They just want three square meals, a cigarette and a beer at the end of the day".

    Right-on Man! But unfortunately this doesn't change anything about the Iranian nuclear program...

    The problem is people lives in countries. These countries have Government that creates international policies. Some of these countries are bad neighbors. They are called "belligerent country". Iran unfortunately is one worst in these times. I would love to dine with my wife in a Cafe in Teheran (with no alcohol....) :wink:

    But there is a problem.

    Please indulge my ranting here. Lets look at some Iran international policies in the recent pass:

    Under the Geneva convention a US embassy (or any other embassy by the way) is sovereign American soil. This was direct assault against America and hits Citizens...

    We know now that the suicide group was what is call Today "Hezzbollah" (The party of God). A group that is financed and trained by Iran. We will never forget these Marines and Legionnaire.

    It is well documented the Iran government has financed and armed terrorist groups around the world. They provided explosive material to built suicide belts and so on.

    Suicide bombers... This is a concept that will never understand. What must be going in the head of these poor souls.

    Now Iran wants Nukes....

    I wonder what the Iranian Government is thinking about our children.

    And just FYI:

    The Czech and the Pol are not stupid...

    Cheers!

    :D

    West01 :wink:
     
  15. West01

    West01 New Member

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    Oops... :oops:

    It should say .. "is sovereign soil."

    My bad..

    :D
    West01