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I do not personally have any problem with it, but I do think it was a bit shortsighted of Trijicon to think no one would ever make a fuss about it. Frankly, I'm surprised they "got away with it" for this long without some PC nutjob throwing a fit. If I were a serviceman, this report would make we want a Trijicon product even more... From that angle, I suppose it wasn't a terrible business decision on Trijicon's part after all... :rofl:*
 

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a little more about those who are making a "fuss" about it....

It irks me a little that the Anti-God crowd feel they are slighted at any mention of any God...

This situation has no middle ground, as you either believe in a God, or you do not believe in a God.

1A right to free speech and religion give those who do believe in a God the right to speak freely about it. As well, those who do not are equally free to speak out.

Neither view should ever attempt to quash the others freedoms to do so.

While the biblical references on the optics do nothing to enhance the function of the device, they also do nothing to hamper it's use...

It is simply a matter of personal preference.

If the references offend you, use a different optic. If another optic is not available to you, get over it.

As a believer in a supreme creator, or God, I might just as easily suggest that all optics available with no biblical references are promoting Atheism and are there for Anti-God, and offensive to me. Naturally, I see the absurdness of just such a claim, and have much more productive things to do with my time than cry like a baby about it...
 

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Religious intolerance has killed more people than anything else in the history of the world. That being said, I don't want biblical scripts of any language or any religion on my weapon systems. Case in point. Radical Islam tries to push it's beliefs on the rest of the world through terrorism by killing innocent civilians who did not ask to be a part of a religious war. Why should Trijicon think it's o.k. to inscribe religious code on the side of a gun scope that is going to be used by people with all different religious backgrounds and faiths or non-religious fighters in our military. They should have read the part about Separation of Church and State in their contract with the military and abided by it. The part about religion that is so fun to watch is the: my god is better than your god debate. It gets so heated that people start pulling the trigger over it!!! Well, religious people will keep debating and bullets will keep flying. Maybe I should buy stock in ammunition companies.
 

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By law the US Military is forbidden from distributing religious materials to other nations (is my understanding) either overtly or covertly--the military is not the wing of any one religion in the US and by law isn't supposed to be used thusly. These optics were sold not only to US soldiers, but provided to the Iraqi Gov't for use on their weapon systems as well.

I'm Christian and I wouldn't want the US distributing or pushing another religion on me, so I'll take the high road and say that I'm alright with them not distributing my religion onto others. I'd rather do it priivately anyhow--the Gov't seems to muck up a lot of what they get into anyhow.

Problem is that the US Gov't wasn't informed of the scripture references marked on the outside of Trijicon's products--The ACOG is the primary product from Trijicon the Army buys in the quantities of hundreds of thousands.

Trijicon, owned by a Christian, has been doing this since the inception of the company--I see nothing wrong with that at all...in fact I think it's pretty cool.

That said, if I was a Gov't contract officer, I'd call them to the table for not making the Gov't aware of this practice and not giving the Gov't the option to comply with the law.

Just my 2 cents.

Matt
 

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If the references offend you, use a different optic. If another optic is not available to you, get over it.


You do know that Trijicons are issued the Marines, as well as many other servicemen, right? All soldiers are not free to configure their rifle any way they please, and as such, many are "stuck" with whatever Trijicon wishes to put on their optics.

1A right to free speech and religion give those who do believe in a God the right to speak freely about it. As well, those who do not are equally free to speak out.

I wonder if you would be so tolerant and understanding if the owner of Trijicon was a Muslim and chose to inscribe references to the Qur'an on their optics? Just kidding, I already know how well that would go over...*:rolleyes:


We're going to move this one over to the Soap Box...
 

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I'm not religious by any means and unfortunately for me the more i hear about it the less i want to do with it. that being said; i do not persecute others for their beliefs (even though i do not feel reciprocated in the matter).

The people at Trijicon should have thought about their defense contract a little differently than the rest of their products; not everyone in the US military is a Christian. I hope that this does not become some new staging point for increased attacks or fighting anywhere.
 

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A couple of points:

There are no Bible verses or even correct references on the ACOGs. The last several alphanumerics on some of the serial numbers correspond (intentionally) to Bible verses. There is a huge difference in "encoding" a reference to a Bible verse in a serial number, and writing a Bible verse or an actual BV reference on the unit. Some people I heard talking about the situation were so misinformed they thought the soldiers saw glowing Bible verses when they looked through the ACOG sights.



There is a photo of the offensive serial number. Really, that's the problem that has people up in arms? A friend of mine from church is the purchasing officer for SOCCENT (special operations command; I'm not sure if that's the correct acronym) at MacDill AFB. She had the fun job of interfacing with the Congressional committee investigating this travesty of Separation of Church and State and had to explain that the serial numbers in question (and it is not every ACOG with the offensive serials) are barely over an inch long and less than a tenth of inch high. The congressmen were only slightly better informed than the folks I overheard because congress thought they actually had the verses written on the side of the ACOGs.

ABC had posted some photos (I cannot seem to find them now) of the serial numbers. The problem was, the photos were photoshopped with the serial numbers enlarged, so that they were large enough to actually see in the photograph. It made the numbers appear far more prominent than actuality.
 

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...I wonder if you would be so tolerant and understanding if the owner of Trijicon was a Muslim and chose to inscribe references to the Qur'an on their optics...
You probably won't believe me (you've read my other religiopolitical postings) but I wouldn't care too much depending on which Quranic suras they chose to reference. I wouldn't mind the sura about how allah loves all the little forest bunnies (I made that one up; I haven't found it yet in my Quran but it's surely in there somewhere). I would have a problem with the sura about how the beautiful day is coming when faithful Muslims get to kill all the Jews and they'll try to hide behind rocks but the rocks will cry out that there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

I would be far more concerned with the fact that our government has contracted defense supplies with a Muslim company for supplies to aid in killing Muslims...pardon me, I mean terrorists. It would be an odd conflict of interest in my mind and I wouldn't have much faith in the product.
 

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You do know that Trijicons are issued the Marines, as well as many other servicemen, right? All soldiers are not free to configure their rifle any way they please, and as such, many are "stuck" with whatever Trijicon wishes to put on their optics.
Thus, "... If another optic is not available to you, get over it."

I wonder if you would be so tolerant and understanding if the owner of Trijicon was a Muslim and chose to inscribe references to the Qur'an on their optics? Just kidding, I already know how well that would go over...*:rolleyes:


We're going to move this one over to the Soap Box...
Certainly, It would not make me feel comfortable, and might even offend me (to use terminology easily understood by everyone), but the 1A allows everyone the same freedoms of speech and religion.

I thought my post made that position crystal clear.

Also, Trijicon is not a government company, it is privately owned. They can put anything they like on the equipment they manufacture without violating any church/state separation laws...

If you don't like it, buy another product.

It is called capitalism.
 

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I might just as easily suggest that all optics available with no biblical references are promoting Atheism and are there for Anti-God, and offensive to me.
that's just TOO DAMN FUNNY. but seriously, from someone who is on the opposing side: I am not a christian, nor do i believe in god. and like you guys have stated before, we have a right to free speech ( thank you service men and women) and i dont believe people like me who arent men of faith, should have the right to tell you what you can or cannot say. Trijicon is a private company and they can do with their products as they please.

to take it a step further, i'm a non smoker, and a non drinker. and i'm slightly annoyed when people ban smoking ciggarettes, and drinking.
I live in Louisville, KY where smoking in bars, restaurant, parks, -in public- is now aginst the law....

seriously ? let people do what they want! i dont like 2nd hand smoke.....SO I DONT GO TO BARS, i dont like abortion, SO MY WIFE WONT HAVE ONE......
same response i would give to anti-gun liberals....dont like firearms? dont own one.

so if you dont like the TINY INSCRIPTION on your optic, learn to shoot without it... and quit your fussing.

do people just need to find new reasons to be angry with each other these days or what ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Dayam...guess I still not gettin' it. What I mean is ever'one uses symbols ta have their god/god's favor 'em in battle...from cavemen ta modern warriors.



How many times have ya run across these symbols on firearms or weapons? ... from knives ta rifles...even war planes!

If its in code or not, its ta have the God/s favor us for a better outcome.

And, if someone hadn't brought this lit'l incident to the public light, who'da cared? <shrug>

Do we care if our boys are over there in harms way? Hell yeah! Do we wanna invoke whatever it takes ta get 'em back home safe an' sound? Hell yeah! If we gonna send 'em in ta a shitstorm, send 'em in and stack the deck...do whatever we can ta get 'em back, invokin' whatever God/s 'll listen an' help 'em out. I think that's a global and timeless practice.

What I don't get is this..."who doesn't wanna get 'em back safe, usin' what-the-fu*k-ever-we-got-ta-draw-from, includin' faith, prayers, or symbols invokin' ethereal favors or otherwise? What's it gonna hurt one iota???

I'll let y'all fig'r out the politics. I'm just this guy. <shrug>

Anyway, I just thought it was a curious thing...that anyone wouldn't get behind our boys in whatever way we can.

Wulf <-- believes inna higher power an' tappin' in whenever the opportunity presents itself
 

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To be perfectly clear: I did not interpret anyone's post to say or infer the following but I have heard the sentiment expressed elsewhere.

What really pisses me off is the people who say that we should pull all the ACOGs and use something else. Aren't we using them because they are the best optic for the price for that particular range of shooting (mid-distance)? That people would care so much that they would rather have our men and women using inferior optics than one that has on it a slightly encoded reference to a book in which they don't even believe, infuriates me.

Now, if there was a soldier who had been issued one of the offending ACOG's who was truly "offended" by its serial number, then maybe he should be offered one without an encoded serial number. There may, in fact, be soldiers in that situation, but all the fuss that I'm aware of is coming from armchair lawyerbacks who aren't putting their rumps on the line for what they believe.
 

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all the fuss that I'm aware of is coming from armchair lawyerbacks who aren't putting their rumps on the line for what they believe.
i couldnt find a report of any soldiers who were truely upset by this... it seems to be special interest groups stirring up crap. if i were over there i couldnt care less what was written on the optic, just that it worked. that america is safe, and i can get home to my family.
 

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I'm quite sure the whole thing is a media creation... Lord only knows which blue state hippy first sounded the alarm, but I'd be stunned if you could find five guys in the whole armed services who gave a shit about it.


Trijicon is a private company, and they can do what they want. And as such, they have every right to lose their billion-dollar-a-year contact with Uncle Sam because some PC looneys in CA and NY pulled the fire alarm about "Christian indoctrination in the armed forces". *It's a joke, but Trijicon should have seen this coming a mile away...
 

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After reviewing the photo I'd like to retract my previous statement/post (am i allowed to do that?) and submit another: this argument is *(&@)# stupid... if it encoded in a serial number... who cares? very tiny markings on a not so visible area isn't going to destroy someone's faith in their religion.


Originally i thought Trijicon was putting stuff like: "Jesus wept" along the top part of the scope next to the adjustment knobs. :wall: doh!
 

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I'm quite sure the whole thing is a media creation... Lord only knows which blue state hippy first sounded the alarm, but I'd be stunned if you could find five guys in the whole armed services who gave a shit about it.


Trijicon is a private company, and they can do what they want. And as such, they have every right to lose their billion-dollar-a-year contact with Uncle Sam because some PC looneys in CA and NY pulled the fire alarm about "Christian indoctrination in the armed forces". *It's a joke, but Trijicon should have seen this coming a mile away...
and you know they arent going to loose a billion dollar contract over it. They'll change it the day they hear from the military that they need to.........too bad. But i'd rather be using an Acog if SHTF then a BSA made in China.......fifteen years later the red triangle is still bright and lens clear as a bell.........
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hi Guys :)

Didn't know exactly what the reaction would b from my SC Bro's. <shrug> Thanx for chippin' in on my enlightenment. After careful consideration, I'm lead ta one conclusion, "wonder how much them God Blessed ACOG's will fetch, once they're decommissioned?" ;)

Thanx for participatin', Bros :)

Wulf <-- flippin' thru 'is KJ ta 'is fav'rit Jesus code, John 11:35, "ἐδάκρυσεν ὁ ἰησοῦς" *sigh*
 

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Wulf, I'm impressed. Not only do you support your SC brethren, you seek to enlighten us with a well turned Greek phrase.

Wow! Well done.
 
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