Tueller Drill: How close is too close for CCW?

Discussion in 'Anything Else' started by Netfotoj, Nov 20, 2006.

  1. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    I recently learned about the "Tueller drill" when reading about Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute (LFI) http://www.defenseassociates.com/lfi.htm classes for police instructors. It's information anyone needs to know who is prepared to shoot in defense of his life or loved ones.

    How close is too close? That's the crucial question. How close can you allow an armed aggressor to approach before your life is threatened and you can legally shoot? According to the Tueller drill, "too close" is within 21 feet.

    Ayoob's students are taught to not only practice the drill, but to take notes in class and then mail themselves those notes via registered mail so they will be able to prove in court, if necessary, that they knew the "deadly distance" before they fired in self defense.

    Here's a link to Ayoob's video on the drill: http://www.recguns.com/Sources/HowClose.html

    And here's a link to the original Tueller drill report, which appeared in SWAT magazine in 1983: http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tuel ... .Close.htm

    The drill also is summarized in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    I'm no lawyer, but seems to me if you registered mailed printouts of these webpages to yourself with your own notes on them, that would help.

    As the least, it's information every gun owner needs to know.

    I recently attended a concealed-carry class required under NC law to get a permit to carry. Perhaps this overview of NC law will be instructive to some. What we all need is a "stand your ground" law like Florida has.

    http://www.johnmyers.com/column93.html
     
  2. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    Still have my unopened registered package from Mas' LFI-I class. More than 21' since Murphy's Law means you're likely to fumble a bit on the draw in a real situation. That's why you also move to create extra time and distance.
     

  3. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Tueller drill vs. 7-yard-pistol target training

    Isn't it an interesting coincidence that Tueller determined that 21 feet is the minimum distance to draw and fire on an armed aggressor and 7 yards is the usual distance for target training with pistol shooting? I agree with you, if someone comes at me with a knife or club, I'm not going to wait until they get to 21 feet to draw. I figure 21 feet is where I ought to start shooting. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
     
  4. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    That is also why have basic hand-to-hand and hand-to-weapon skills is almost a must-have for CCW people.
     
  5. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    agreed, selfdefense.

    i think too many gun owners make the gun their sole safety net; forgetting that you must be able to elude, evade or fight your attacker long enough to draw the weapon. i wish more handgun training incorporated movement into their drills.

    learning to step to the side while drawing, or throw a punch/then draw... these things might keep you from taking a bullet and breaking the first rule of a gunfight.

    also would like to see more training available which practices shooting from retention.

    shooting from retention, for those who don't know, is when you draw the weapon and turn it towards your attacker, but never actually extend your arm. in this way you are speeding up the first shot time while ensuring your attacker cannot knock your gun away. it's called retention because you're just above your holster and you're in a position to retain control of the weapon.

    very few instructors actually allow this, fewer teach it. it's VERY dangerous as the muzzle is not a great distance away from your body, which affords lots of opportunity to point it at your person.

    however... in the case of a guy charging down on you, getting shots on him RIGHT NOW, before he gets on top of you is what is needed.

    i do a lot of this in my house with an airsoft pistol. i practice this "live" when i'm shooting in the middle of the woods. no range would allow this under normal conditions.

    i just set up three papers ~4 feet away. i'll practice 1 round on a target, 2 rounds on a target, 2 chest each then head shot each, 4 shots then reload while back pedaling, and also circling (180 degrees when others are present) the three targets. quick draw/rapid fire/point shooting.

    also good to set up a drill where you have an unknown number of bullets. when the gun runs dry, punch your attacker WITH THE GUN, while you're reaching for your spare mag.

    also like to have three targets at different distances. 4ft. 21ft. and 45ft. i'm not really practicing getting accurate shots. i'm practicing the "cadence" or time between the shots that is necessary to stay on target. practicing for accuracy yields good results...accuracy wise, but watch the timer and you're spending a lot of time aiming. by practicing timing between shots, you free your mind of concentrating on aiming, and in turn actually shoot quite amazing well, and watch the times go WAAY down. you're also practicing the three different site pictures. 1) none. 2) front site. 3)complete sight picture.

    it's a fight... make your body a weapon too. i wish training of this style was more widely available.
     
  6. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    Absolutely agree with you BT. Most ranges don't allow you to do crampo.....and its bad practice anyway you cut it.....move, move, move.........the more dynamic the practice the better for survival and real life scenarios.........
     
  7. smores

    smores Guest

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    I'm reading one of Ayoob's books right now and just got done reading the CQB section. It is absolutely vital to know these skills. I was in the Army for a brief time (1.5 years, medical discharge), and we were taught that when you get that close, it's a fight and you can't rely on your weapons alone.

    I'm trying to convince my gf or my brother to run through CQB drills (hand-to-hand) with airsoft guns. I wouldn't care if a $20 hunk of plastic got tossed across the room. But any of my real firearms... I'd be pretty upset :twisted:

    Besides, it's fun to shoot at each other with low-powered BB guns. They also work great for killing bugs/spiders/wasps/bees etc..
     
  8. posterboy7

    posterboy7 New Member

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    The more I read everyone's post the more I appreciate my instructor, my indoor range and the self-defense shooting community I have here.

    Every Monday night from spring till late fall a two hour pistol course is taught a my local indoor range. I have only attended one so far - my goal is at least one a month - but in that class we were taught to shoot from retention. I am very glad I have this skill. I did feel the slide glace off my side once but it didn't hurt and it didn't leave a bruise. I was holding the gun a little too far forward. For me it was also a confidence builder because I was hitting just as well as people who are magnitudes better than I am with a pistol. I know, at that range it is hard to miss, but it still felt good.

    A friend of mine did a drill during one course where everyone stood an arm's lenght from the target, fired two to the chest at point blank, stepped to the side of the target and deliverd one to the head, again, at point blank. He said it was intense. I am not sure how sound it was in terms of pistol retention. The drill was to simulate a charging attacker, so I think the assumption was that ideally you would be firing before the attacker gets to the muzzle of your gun but was to prepare the student mentally to fire at point blank range and then side step and finish the attacker. Basically, a close in Failure Drill.
     
  9. midtnshooter

    midtnshooter Premium Member

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    Hey Guys,

    I too have been doing alot retention shooting. I have stated this on several threads that I am forbidden to carry while at work. Even though my job is looked at as being VERY dangerous. I am not a LEO, but everytime I am at work, I have a under skilled security officer that could and has at one time shot herself in the foot at a gun range. Since my M40 can't be stored in my pants because I am often laying on my side or back, I carry a Maxpedition bag that is carried like a SanFransico purse. It has a velcro strap that is strapped around the belt loop and looks like an expensive tool bag. It is black and is made to conceal a weapon. I live on 10 acres with woods in the country and set up targets like Net. I kneel down on one knee like I am working and practice pulling and shooting with a timer that has a delay on beep. I don't know when the beep comes, so I am unprepaired. I shoot a double tap and reholster. I lay down on my side and run through somemore double taps. My family sees me shooting and knows that this will strengthen my skills. It is good to know what my range is allowed. On several occassions at work, I have stood up when my security officer tells me to get alert. My hand goes into my bag and I step back from my job several feet back. It is his or her job to protect me, but God as my witness, The bad guys will see more lead than us.

    Thank you for the information. I truly appreciate it, as does my family.

    Your friend,
    MTS
     
  10. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    Good drill midnshooter. Suggestion for you.....do more then double tap....you are engraining two shots..vary that to three, four five or more, like your timer, change it up and stay safe..........Happy New Year..........
     
  11. Elbows

    Elbows New Member

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    Without watching the videos...I concur. At the BP academy we do training again, at around 20 feet. Charging at you, trying to draw..its a pain in the butt. If you fumble AT all..you're dead.

    That and they would charge at us, then dodge back and forth a little, making it ridiculous. Hence why we trained a good bit in self-defence when you simply cant draw. Scary stuff.
     
  12. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    It is generally accepted that anyone within 21 feet of your person is to close for you to draw and fire before they reach you...

    Do not underestimate the need for effective hand to hand combat skills....

    :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
     
  13. mr. ford

    mr. ford Guest

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    out of curiosity does the tueller 21 feet only apply to people drawing a firearm already with a chambered round and cocked? or does the tueller emphasize the importance of the 21 feet in order to draw, rack the pistol (chamber a round) and fire? when i carry, rarely do i have it code 3, usually only code 2 which for my steyr or glock i'd assume it's really only code 3 or code 1 not 2. however, i carry my gov't colt 380 acp.. curious as to know what kind of condition you "1911" owners on here carry?
    with my 380 i'm usually condition 1. however i'd prefer condition 2 to condition 3 - i.e. just having a round chambered, mag in well, but pistol is not cocked, as opposed to condition 3 where round is chambered, mag in well, pistol cocked, but manual saftey on.

    i would start a separate thread on this, but figured i'd add it here since i was curious about the carrying condition of a pistol is the tueller/ 21 feet methodology most applicable to?

    thanks,
    mr. ford
     
  14. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    Tueller drill is based upon having the pistol holstered with a round in the chamber. Not to turn this into a "why you should carry with one chambered" thread, but if you ever need a gun, you're going to really need it, and taking time to fumble with racking one up is usually not going to be an option. And you never know - you may accidently ride the slide forward under stress, or do any number of things to cause a feed error - how much time is it going to take to draw, rack, clear a malfunction, and then fire?
     
  15. mr. ford

    mr. ford Guest

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    i hear ya, and i agree. from now on when i carry i.e. my colt 380 it'll have a round chambered; however, i don't plan on having it cocked and manual saftey activated.. i plan on carrying cond. 2 with that particular pistol. having to draw and thumb the hammer back shouldn't be an issue -- at least i hope.
     
  16. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Standard carry for any 1911-style pistol, which the Colt Mustang .380 is included, is "cocked and locked." Carrying a 1911 pistol with the hammer down and a round in the chamber is a prescription for disaster. A jar or contact with the hammer could and likely even would cause it to discharge. :eek:

    Unless you have a Colt .380 with a decocker, which I've never heard of, I would strongly recommend you carry it cocked and locked or without a round in the chamber. I wouldn't do the latter, but I most certainly wouldn't carry it with a round in the chamber in any other condition but cocked and locked. That's the way Mr. Browning designed his pistols to be carried. :D

    And yes, Syntax is right, the Tueller drill assumes a round in the chamber.
     
  17. mr. ford

    mr. ford Guest

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    ah okay, thanks for the info netfotoj!
    although question -- how could the pistol fire from cond 2? the only way i can think of is if the hammer was fully cocked and released.. otherwise wouldn't the firing pin be out of position? either way wouldn't the inertia firing pin and the firing pin lock make a colt gov't 380 fine for carrying cond 2??
     
  18. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    Netfoto is talking about the possibility of, say, the pistol falling out of the holster or out of your hands and landing on the hammer. If said pistol does not have a firing pin block (my Sig GSR 1911 does), all of the energy from that fall may be focused on the hammer, simulating a hammer fall, and resulting in a very loud, very unexpected, and possibly very tragic "bang".
     
  19. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    ...just carry an HK P7 - in any flavor, and the issue is alleviated...

    :D:D:D
     
  20. mr. ford

    mr. ford Guest

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    this is why i'm confused.. with the inertia and firing pin lock, i guess i don't understand how a chambered round with the hammer decocked could arise in an unwanted misfire..