The Way it 'Oughtta Be '!?! /// UPDATED INFO\\\

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by babj615, Nov 29, 2007.

  1. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    YouTube Video here.

    Interested in everyones opinions.....

    Point, Counter Point?

    :wink: :wink:


    UPDATE: Better Info here.
     
  2. QPluralisT

    QPluralisT Guest

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    Hm, interesting. I know nothing about the laws of Texas, so as far as I know you can only shoot someone if you're doing a handstand. Among the things I noticed, September 11th, is probably not a good legal statute to shoot anyone. Spending 5 minutes on the phone premeditating the death of anyone with a police officer is probably not a good idea.

    From what I can tell from the report, the crooks were on foot and had no transportation to speak of. The neighborhood seemed to be an elderly one, which is probably why it was targeted in the first place. And from the news report, it sounded as though there had been repeated robberies in the area.

    I really question whether the gentleman knew his rights under Texas law. The officer is right to an extent, it's not worth killing someone over property (especially you neighbors property) when the laws of the land will send you to prison for it. And not to be too cold, but his neighbors knew darn well what was going on around them. They had ample time to consider their security situation as this was not a freak accident. When you sit there with your mouth open, don't complain when a fly lands in your mouth.

    At the very least, those two will never rob THAT place again! :p

    Oh, and this video has better subtitles, and if you ask me they sped up the tape on the one you linked to make the gunshots seem faster. He doesn't say "Boom, you're dead" he says "Move, you're dead".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYQ4sHCHFRc&feature=related
     

  3. midtnshooter

    midtnshooter Premium Member

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    Wow, I don't know how to stand for this one. Yes he did take an excessive role in this, but how long should someone be expected to take these home invasions? I know popping a cap off in the ground would still land him in jail, but at least the two guys might have stopped. When it is darks, all they knew was to bolt. They most likely could not have seen a weapon or thought the man was bluffing. Boy he wasn't bluffing.

    Wow, I hope the grand jury hears the complete story so his rights will be represented properly.


    MTS
     
  4. squirrelpotpie

    squirrelpotpie Premium Member

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    well, there is a lot we don't know...

    did the burglars move?
    did the burglars move away?
    did the burglars move toward?
    were they carrying a weapon at the time they were shot? (a crowbar was used to break into the house)

    or more controversially, does it matter?

    barring some evidence of a lure or a premeditated plan, i'd be inclined to acquit the guy for defending his neighborhood from violent criminals and assisting in their um... apprehension.

    counter point:
    lets hope they didn't just accidentally lock themselves out and had to break into their own home.
    i've had to crawl in through a window or force a door in my own home on a couple of occasions,
    would hate to get shot by an overzealous neighbor.
     
  5. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    He was referring to the Texas State Legislature passing our castle doctrine law on September 1st, not September 11th.

    I'm torn on this one. Had I been in his shoes, I'm almost positive I would not have gone outside. However, I'm also not going to condemn the man who did - with the suspects that close and the circumstances as they are, I think it is entirely plausible that they were a threat. No one forced these guys to commit the crime - all of their actions and decisions prior to that day lead to their untimely demise. I'm not saying that theft should be punishable by swift death, but the totality of the circumstances - their prior history of drug usage and criminal behavior, their involvement in this particular burglary, and their apparent intentions to victimize Mr. Horn - all of these factors lead me to believe that perhaps these two unsavory guys got exactly what they deserved.

    I would sure hate to be Mr. Horn if this thing goes civil by the family of the deceased... :evil:
     
  6. ChillyWilly

    ChillyWilly New Member

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    There are other vids that are more accurate but this guy is a retard regardless. He asked if he should stop them and the 911 operator said "no the police on the way". He has hung himself with that whole exchange....especially with the whole crap about him racking the shotgun and "here I go"....what the hell is that....and his life was not in "iminant danger", he is screwed. With all the BS happening these days you have to be more intelligent about how you handle things....otherwise you end up in jail or sued....

    P.S. fugger the criminals.....maybe some dumbass somewhere will learn a lesson and straighten out his life before he ends up in a body wagon on channel 5 news
     
  7. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    Hey Chilly,

    in communist Kalifornia, you would be correct....

    but in FREEDOM LOVING TEXAS, I believe he will walk.....

    More on this later....

    Best to you, my Kalifornia Koncentration Kamp buddy....

    :wink: :wink:
     
  8. midtnshooter

    midtnshooter Premium Member

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    Amen

    MTS
     
  9. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    Not gonna happen.... He didn't break any laws, and therefore cannot [and I predict WILL NOT] be prosecuted....

    8) 8)
     
  10. Rick

    Rick New Member

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    it's probalbly going to get uglier after the Quanel X protest in his front yard. He's has already "dared" the guy to bring out his shotgun. Those of you who don't live in this area be thankful you don't have a mr. x - of course you may have your own version!
     
  11. midtnshooter

    midtnshooter Premium Member

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    Yes, hopefully the ones who haven't crossed the street of violent crimes, would turn around (my prayers are with them).

    Nice Saying !!!


    I agree whole heartily agree with you on this one also. I just wouldn't want to be in his shoes right now. Like Syn said, The Civil Courts could depleet (spelling) his retirement funds.


    And again, like you all have said. We do not know ALL the facts.


    Thank you all for sending out great info. (411 to the Hood. Hooo hooo.... my country boy hood talk).


    MTS
     
  12. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    It seems I forgot the most BEAUTIFUL part of our lovely new law...

    Sec. 83.001. AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE. Specifies that the use of justifiable force, in addition to deadly force, under Subchapter C, Chapter 9, rather than Section 9.32, is an affirmative defense to certain civil actions.

    AND

    Sec. 83.002. COURT COSTS, ATTORNEY'S FEES, AND OTHER EXPENSES. Authorizes a defendant who prevails in asserting an affirmative defense to recover from the plaintiff all court costs, reasonable attorney's fees, earned income that was lost as a result of the suit, and other reasonable expenses.


    If this guy gets no billed, he's got nothing to worry about in a civil case. 8)

    And honestly, I think babj is correct - even a decent lawyer should have little trouble with a Texas jury. That crap about racking the shotgun is going to be the biggest self-inflicted wound Mr. Horn is going to have to deal with...

    Anyway, in case anyone is interested...

    SB 378:

    SECTION 1. Amends Section 9.01, Penal Code, by adding Subdivisions (4) and (5), to define "habitation" and "vehicle."



    SECTION 2. Amends Section 9.31, Penal Code, by amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (e) and (f), as follows:



    (a) Provides that an actor's belief that the use of force was immediately necessary is considered reasonable if the actor knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used unlawfully entered or attempted to enter the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment or unlawfully removed or attempted to remove the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business. The aforementioned use of force is also considered to be reasonable if the person against whom the force was used was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, or aggravated robbery. Makes nonsubstantive changes.



    (e) Provides that a person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used is not required to retreat before using force, provided that the person has not provoked the person against whom the force is used and is not engaged in criminal activity.



    (f) Prohibits a finder of fact from considering whether the actor failed to retreat when determining whether an actor reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary.



    SECTION 3. Amends Section 9.32, Penal Code, as follows:



    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. Deletes existing text relating to whether a reasonable person in the actor's situation would have not retreated in determining justified use of deadly force. Makes conforming and nonsubstantive changes.



    SECTION 4. Amends Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as follows:



    Sec. 83.001. AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE. Specifies that the use of justifiable force, in addition to deadly force, under Subchapter C, Chapter 9, rather than Section 9.32, is an affirmative defense to certain civil actions.



    SECTION 5. Amends Chapter 83, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, by adding Section 83.002, as follows:



    Sec. 83.002. COURT COSTS, ATTORNEY'S FEES, AND OTHER EXPENSES. Authorizes a defendant who prevails in asserting an affirmative defense to recover from the plaintiff all court costs, reasonable attorney's fees, earned income that was lost as a result of the suit, and other reasonable expenses.



    SECTION 6. Makes application of this Act prospective.



    SECTION 7. Effective date: September 1, 2007.
     
  13. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    Gentlemen......

    It is becoming more difficult by the moment to resist the urge to move back to Texas.....

    I've said it once or twice already, but after reading SynTax360's last post, I must say it once more....


    GOD BLESS TEXAS



    Thanx 4 the great info, SYN.....

    8) 8)
     
  14. raul1427

    raul1427 Guest

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    At the risk of offending some on this forum, I must strongly disagree with some of the commentary on this subject. First of all, this was a way-over-the-top-over-reaction. While I understand the anger and frustration of actually watching these idiots getting away with other peoples property, the phone conversation clearly denotes egomaniacle tendencies and blatant premeditation. According to various reports these guys were unarmed. Now, assuming that they were unarmed, one has to ask, where is the immediate threat? Texas or not, every District Attorney and State Attorney General in the country must ask this fundamental question!!! Another question is, since the police were en route, why didn't he just hold them at gun-point if he felt he had to do something? Many of us as gun owners in the heat of the moment tend to forget the civil cost of being sued for wreckless endangerment, wrongful death, improper use of a firearm, etc., etc.. While I'm all for the 2nd amendment, I am also for responsible gun ownership. This guy may get some pats on the back from some, but believe me when I tell you that this guy did not promote our cause as gun owners with his actions.
     
  15. luvmy40

    luvmy40 Member

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    There are so many things that should be, could be, but won't be said about the state of things that allows a discussion of this situation to ever be necessary...

    All I will say is that I sincerely hope that this man is never even brought to trial.
     
  16. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    Congradualtions!!!!

    :twisted: :twisted:

    "Conjecture. Move to Strike."

    :twisted: :twisted:

    A. Clearly, you missed all the parts about them being armed with a crowbar...
    B. Do you suggest all criminals committing a felony be considered unarmed/harmless until they hurt someone???

    :roll: :roll:

    I'm SURE you've heard the lil' sayin' 'bout assumin' stuff?????

    :oops: :oops:

    Wow, what a statement! Now you suggest the Texas District Attorney and Texas Attorney General simply disregard Texas Law???

    :shock: :shock:

    Ummmm..... Cuz two armed felons ran TOWARDS him, in his yard, on his property...

    :x :x

    ...perhaps then many of YOU gun owners shouldn't own guns???

    Our Cause?

    or Your Cause?

    My Cause is to pin a medal on this mans chest.

    He acted completely within the law. He acted bravely. He acted Honorably.

    The two felons who were robbing his neighbors house did not. They are criminals. There is no defense for their actions, and none should be afforded.

    The people of this country simply must STOP defending criminals and acting as if they have all the rights, which, sadly, in many cases, they do...

    ...sounds a lot like communist Kalifornia....

    ..and ya know which other state in the union closely resembles Kalifonia???

    Thats right. "Nue Yawk". Another very non friendly 2A state.

    The Lines are still being drawn, and I am fairly certain when the next Civil War occurs, Neither of these states will be on MY side of the line....
     
  17. QPluralisT

    QPluralisT Guest

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    Babj,

    I don't think Raul was defending the crooks as much as questioning whether or not Horn was acting in self defense or not.

    If you listen/read the full police recording, Horn made it very clear that if he went outside, he was going to shoot someone. He was fully aware of the consequences of leaving his house, he even attempted to wager his life with the dispatch officer. I would be a little shocked if they gave him murder charges for this, but manslaughter is not out of the question.

    I am sure Mr. Horn is a very nice man and in some respects he did a community service, but I would certainly stop short of calling him noble and brave. There is nothing noble about creating a situation where death occurs. Mr. Horn should ultimately be ashamed of himself as he forgot life, friends, and family in order to save his neighbors jewelry and electronics.

    My hope for Mr. Horn is that he gets a very lucky break with this and everyone forgets it ever happened.

    Your life is not worth your neighbors DVD player.
    ----------

    Syntax, than you for the information! It seemed a bit off the wall to me at the time.
     
  18. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I would just like to add that if you have only watched the video and not read the report, you're doing yourself a great injustice. They (predictably) slanted the hell out of the video and didn't bother to mention many of the facts of the case.
    ----------------
    No problem 8)
     
  19. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    OK, Gents.... ReRead SYN's post.....

    This is not a case of self defense.

    This case is about protecting property.

    And, God Bless Them, Texas allows for the use of deadly force to protect property.


    it IS out of the question.

    ReRead the Texas law in SYN's post again.

    And again.

    Get it yet?


    It saw no mention of what the loot was other than a pillow case full of cash.....

    But, Regardless...

    I feel anyone who would defend a thief with an attempt to blame this good samaritan for creating the 'deadly situation' when it is clearly the two thieves that were doing the wrong....

    ...well, I feel you should be ashamed of that.

    ...and, BTW, if they were not so busy getting jacked up and crack, meth, etc.... all the time, AND they had learned to read in school, they might have known Texas Law allowed for their demise.....

    ...and IF they did know that, and still went into that house to rob it?


    Lets not shift the thieves responsibility onto Mr. Horn anymore.....



    8) 8)
     
  20. luvmy40

    luvmy40 Member

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    First, Mr. Horn did nothing to "create" any situation. The two dead FELONS created the situation when they decided to deny his neighbors their right to privacy.
    Second, I would be proud to have Mr. Horn as my neighbor.

    I sincerely hope that Ohio adopts a Castle Doctrine and SYG law soon. I am disgusted and appalled at the lack of victims rights in this Great Land.
    I do still believe this is the greatest country in the world. We just need to work hard to bring the Liberal Extremist Left back into the light. As unlikely as this is to happen, we must not lie down and take the abuse that they seem to thrive on dishing out.