The Official SHTF thread.

Discussion in 'Anything Else' started by WorldPax, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. WorldPax

    WorldPax Guest

    One of the reasons I have rejoined the shooting community, is I decided i wanted to have some guns again for at the very least a SHTF scenario. I think most of us who grew up during the cold war are suseptable to this kind of thing, and 9/11 has kind of stirred it back up. What the heck, is being prepared ever a bad thing, no matter how unlikely the scenario.

    Firearms are one aspect of this, and I've seen long threads on that topic, boils down to personal preferences mostly, but maybe we can break it down to the minimum. I'm really not trying to focus specifically on the guns so much, as brainstorming for the whole package.

    So here it is.
    ---You can't stay where you are, so everything you take with you is all you have.

    ---No cars. Bicycles and pull carts are allowed, but you do have to plan for not having them.

    ---Since I'm married, I'm calling this a 2 person scenario, someone else can throw kids in the mix.

    So what do you take with you? So far I've thought through the gun part.

    1. Steyr M9
    2. Kel-tec SU-16 .223 rifle.

    Best statement I ever read on this subject was "I'd rather hunt with a fighting weapon than fight with a hunting weapon". There are about a thousand ways to eat other than shooting something so, I'm looking to the guns for protection and less for food production. Both of those are nice lightweight options and impotantly, the ammo they shoot is common and also lightweight.

    That's all for now, except to say, I highly reccomend a book by Ray Jardine. It's his Hikers guide to Lightweight Camping, and it's really good stuff. I know I'll be refering back to it as I build my kit.
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The best thing to do in a scenario such as this is to have a place prepared for such an occasion.

    My family owns a piece of land in Northen Arkansas with a cabin stocked with ammo and basic food-stuffs. If the SHTF the general plan is everyone meet there.

    Oh and my weapons:

    G19 and as many mags as I can take
    Bushy AR 15 in .223 ditto on mags


    Basic medical supplies
    Boy Scout Firestarter/Magnesium based
    thermal rain poncho
    Timberland Boots and as many pairs of socks as I can take
    Military issue assault pack

  3. There are many levels of SHTF.

    I've given alot of thought to various SHTF scenarios and I have come with a number of hypothetical scenarios that involve weapons of mass destruction that would have an adverse effect on an individuals ability to travel.

    The primary question I always have when contemplating such a disaster is whether to stay put and defend the home or attempt to exit my urban environment for a more rural one. Of course, the chaos that would occur if many citizens tried to flee a city at once would be perhaps as dangerous as the actual disaster. Almost a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. We most likely will have little to no warning of an extreme disaster.

    What are your thoughts on standing your grown or leaving for more secluded locations? I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.

    As for my weapons:
    1)Steyr M-40 with 5 12 round LEO Magazines loaded with 165 gram EFMJ Federal Premium Rounds.

    2)Rock River Arms Carbine A4 with EO-Tech 551 sight and other options soon as money will allow. 14 30 round magazines loaded with 77 grain ball ammunition.

    Not much to be honest...still building my tactical gear.
  4. WorldPax

    WorldPax Guest

    So getting down to basics,

    Water:plenty of good water filters out there, guess I'll pack one of those.

    Shelter: Ray has plans for a nice tarp shelter, super-light and seriously functional when properly applied.

    Food: I'd like sugesstions here. Other than what I can kill on the fly, who knows of a good high calorie survival food. Are the military emergency foods OK?

    Defense: duh, guns

    Medicine: Any reccommendations on first aid kits here? I guess adding some broad spectrum antibiotics and pain killers would be good too.

    Fire: can't forget the fire starter that was previously mentioned, and a water tight container for tinder.
  5. CGuns

    CGuns New Member

    Interesting thread.
    Word is, CGuns and his private residence is built pretty sturdy. I am not a "survivalist type" or an "outdoors type", but, I do appreciate good and well thought out security.
    Quite frankly, in a natural disaster situation where things get bad, or if there is a break down of "society" temporarily, I would stick it out at the residence. I have big, 8 foot tall fences all around and when I had them installed, I gave instructions that every 4 feet, the installers were to dig 3-4 feet into the ground and add re-bar and cement in a 2 foot x 2 foot square for additional support. The fencing is stainless steel and it didn't budge when a drunk driver crashed into it. The natrual layer of defense, which is the assortment of vegetation on the property and the driveway that is lined with Royal Palm Trees is spread close enough apart that you enter the "Palm drive" via vehicle, you must stay on the "palm drive" until you reach the can't turn left or right and escape out between the palms....There are big dogs that have been trained to escort cars into the property and they will sit at the driver door of the vehicle until I walk out. There is exterior lighting that lights the premises but not the actual residence, which makes for a bright "kill zone" while hiding those inside. We also have the assortment of strategically places planters, benches and flower pots which provide nice places for cover and movement while firing. They do stop bullets, had some work done on them.

    If I had to leave, I would take the Bushy XM15E2S, basically a CAR-15 clone with 14 30-round magazines, Glock 17 and 5 hi-cap magazines, some sort of rimfire .22 rifle, probably a WWII Mossberg Training rifle for marksmen that I have which is extremely accurate and bolt action, a 12 gauge and a 55 shotshell bandoleer for te brick of shells and a small revolver, like my Taurus snubnose which is .38/.357 compatible.
    Aside from that, other weaponry that I couldn't live with out:
    Russian Spetsnaz Spade- throwing shovel from Sovietski collection
    Russian Spetsnaz survival hatchet- Has fishing line, waterproof matches, the handle. Very neat piece of kit. Also from Sovietski Collection
    Russian/East German AK-47 Bayonet- Has a self sharpening sheath and I like it a lot better than the K-Bar
    SOG Multi purpose Tool - Had for about 9-10 years I think
    Swiss Army Pocket knife - Had for about 9-10 years I think
    SOG Folder - In the back pocket, ready for action
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I've given this thought as well and have been slowly assemilating all my gear. First step was just to inventory what I did have and get it all together! I did alot of reading and looking around and so far I like the suggestions off the best.
  7. CGuns

    CGuns New Member

    As far as carry gear to keep it all, I have a bunch of ballistic nylon type products from Eagle Industries. I have heard that the Blackhawk Tactical Gear is made in China and I have seen it fall apart. The stuff from Eagle has a lifetime warranty so long as you don't shoot it or blow it up. I will stick with Eagle.
    Add in a GPS, compass, map, water, etc....Should be good to go.

    After Hurricane Andrew hit South Florida in 1992, neighborhoods that were destroyed were looted. I pulled up at a family member's residence one day to find a bunch of guys from what sounded to be the Carolinas out front with a pickup truck bed full of stuff. They were looting.
    A lot of neighborhoods organized round the clock watches and more than a few neighbors were out with tactical vests on and AR-15's at the ready.
  8. WorldPax

    WorldPax Guest

    CGuns- Nice setup on the homestead. As for your "pack" sounds like some heavy equipment, are you really going to be able to carry all that?
  9. CGuns

    CGuns New Member

    It is all relative, as to distance one needs to travel, which you didn't specify and the severity of the situation.
    If I had to "bug out" and I was worried about finding food, which would be in a real big SHTF situation, the .22 would be necessary. It is good size and the walnut stock doesn't make it light. It would be necessary. So would the small Taurus revolver, because of ease of concealment and I wouldn't want to advertise in the slightest that I am packing.
    For small scale or short term situations, I think the best thing to do is to hunker down in an area that is hard to access and that can be defended easily. In these instances, I think a Shotgun, Semi-Auto handgun and centerfire rifle are all that is needed.
    I picked the G17 over the Steyr because I haven't gotten a good set of holsters for the M9 yet, the G17 carries more ammo and it probably can stand not being cleaned for long periods of time better than the M9.
    P.S. As far as carrying it, I do have several camping packs with aluminum frames that would be able to accomodate most of it without a problem. I would try and use some sort of vehicle, however. You said a car wasn't available. What about an ATV or Gator ground vehicle?
  10. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    unfortunately all to true. As much as i love the steyrs and they are superrior shooters I wouldn't want to roll it around in mu d and fire it then let it dry and fire it again.
    As much as i hate the feel of glocks I always qualify it w/ the statement that it is the pistol that will go bang no matter how you abuse it!

    for daily suburbia carry though I would rather have a steyr and know it will perform, even if it will never be a "battlefield" pistol.
  11. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks about SHTF situations it's not something I bring up in conversation with my friends or family too often in fear of being labeled a crazy.

    Of course, the only crazy thing is not to think about such situations at all. It is not if, but only when this country will face an attack from enemies using weapons of mass destruction. Hopefully, such a horrible attack will not take place in my life time, but it will take place.

    What scares me the most are weapons of mass destruction and the ease of entry into this country even after 9/11. Does anyone here have NBC clothing and masks? Could anyone recommend a place to find high quality affordable NBC protection?
  12. CGuns

    CGuns New Member

    Yes. I will PM you.

    I own products from Israeli Defense Force and Drager, Germany for NBC situations. Top of the line, but look at the political situations and the geography. Israel has never eally skimped on quality or defense related expenditures.

    I didn't buy it for SHTF scenarios, it is business related. Nevertheless, I do have it in my possession.
  13. CGuns

    CGuns New Member

    Let me also mention, I really like the comfort of air conditioning and nice furnitue, I don't go camping or boondocking, etc...
    I am not a survivalist, I don't read Doomsday books or anything of that nature.
    Some of the stuff I did was to try out some design ideas that I had. Plus, I enjoy good security and this stuff is basic State Dept 101.
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have 2 backpacks (wife and I) packed with identical gear in case we get separated in a chaotic situation or if we're not together when the SHTF.

    1. Glock 22 w/safariland paddle and 4 15 round mags ( I chose this pistol because it's common and mags/ammo are common.)

    2. Small first aid kit w/ needle and thread
    3. 3 power bars
    4. Hydration gel and salt tabs
    5. Hand held 2 way radio w/ extra batteries
    6. OC spray
    7. Duct tape and nylon cord
    8. Leatherman tool
    9. Waterproof matches
    10. Sanitizing gel
    11. 3 five round boxes of 12 ga 00 buckshot
    12. 40 rounds of 762x39

    I will be carrying my folding mini 30 ranch and my wife will be carrying the 870 police.

    The kids backpack is full of MRE's and dog biscuits. :D
  15. Does anyone carry a rifle in their automobile?

    Do you guys keep an SHTF kit on you at all times and does that include carrying a rifle in the trunk to back up your pistol? I've heard it said that a pistol is a find thing for buying you time to get to a rifle and I believe in a SHTF that may be very true.
  16. WorldPax

    WorldPax Guest

    Not yet, but I plan on having 3 levels of kit.

    1) An anytime, just the essentials, emergency kit.

    2) A "Bug-Out" I can travel on foot and be completely self-sufficient for quite awhile kit.

    3) A luxury and extra supplies kit that can be pulled behind me in a bicycle trailer or medium sized wagon. This stuff would be able to be ditched/stashed or traded off if needed.
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You guys are prepared! I've just had cursory thoughts about this in truth, but this is a good point. I'm not sure of the need to prepare to live for a month or 2 without access to a Wal-Mart or a grocery. I haven't heard of the scenario that would cause a "Red Dawn" (remember THAT movie?) situation where total chaos sweeps the land for an extended period where I couldn't live off my pantry and repel borders until it passed. (I know that's not the scenario that WorldPax outlined)

    I'm really surprised that 5.56 NATO is sufficient for you guys. I personally would have a Springfield Armory M1A SOCOM with Meprolight reflex and optional magnifier. Handles well enough for CQB and will put them down at stand-off ranges. Pistols would probably be H&K USP 9mm and Beretta 92F for reliability, durability and commonality of ammo. I'd probably invest in some Litton NVGs and craploads of batteries, because a SHTF scenario would probably be worse at night.

    Very interesting thoughts here.

  18. WorldPax

    WorldPax Guest

    Well there you go Jeff. Red Dawn is really pretty close to the type of scenario I was thinking of. Take out trying to fight the invading Russians and that's the type of survival I'm personally preparing for. Mobile self sufficency for an indefinite time period. Again, I don't think this is likely to happen, but if you're prepared for the worst then you're prepared for everything. Cheap insurance in my book.

    As for the .223, I chose it over the .308 and other larger calibers because:

    It's a common caliber.
    It's lighter so I can carry more.
    It may not be ideal for deer and other larger game, but it will suffice at shorter ranges.
    If I want to take smaller game, it won't totally obliterate it.
    It's a good fighting round.

    So, common, versitile, and leightweight.
  19. CGuns

    CGuns New Member

    Worldpax and his choice of .223 over .308 mimicks why the vast majority of my handguns are in 9mm.

    Gets the job done
    Light weight
    very common- all over the world
    high capacity magazines
    Like the SEAL who was being knocked for not choosing a .45 and going with a 9mm Sig P226 instead, "When I put 2 in your chest and 1 in your head, are you really going to know the difference?"

    I selected .223 because the CAR-15/AR-15 M4 weapons platform is light and handy. I specifically selected 14-30 round magazines because that is what most of the private military contractors carry on the job in hot zones like Iraq, etc....In a SHTF scenario, and I need more than 14-30 round magazines on my person, I am screwed anyways.
    I know that .308 caliber FN FAL's/etc...have 30 round magazines. But, they are heavy and bulky. I might build one though, but an STG58 in order to satisfy the Steyr fix. :p
    (STG58 is Steyr built FAL).
  20. CGuns

    CGuns New Member

    The other thing is the CAR-15/M4 is a short weapons system, especially with the multi-position stock assembly.

    If I need to move, I am going to want to do it by car or boat. Not a lot of space. It is tough to get a .308 Battle Rifle up and in a car or to fire from vehicles with it, at least in a car or wheeled environment. You don't have this problem on a boat, assuming it is of reasonable size. The thought of having only 20 shots is a little spooky too. Few rifles change mags as fast as the M4 in my experience.