Teachers and guns

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by Deluxe247, Oct 5, 2006.

Do you think that teachers should be armed at school?

  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  1. Deluxe247

    Deluxe247 Supporting Member

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    What do you all think?

    Interesting idea but it will never happen. Like it was stated in the article, it's not a very PC option to help keep our kids safe. It (being armed) is good enough for airline pilots and their passengers but not our children at school. :evil:

    Part of that freedom is choosing to arm and protect yourself. What a dope. I think that if a teacher chooses to carry concealed at work they should be able to do so (legally of course), just like pilots get to choose.

    Here is the article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15142930/

    -D
     
  2. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes Guest

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    One thing I would worry about is training and mindset. My g/f is a teacher, and I don't know that she wouldn't hesitate. And she goes to the range all the time. And training I think would have to go beyond a regular CCW course. Who pays for it? I dont know. I voted yes, because I dont think the situation could get worse. Of course, to get the gun quick, it cant be locked up, and if it isnt, kids could get to it. All it would take is one Billy getting Teacher's gun and killing Sally. Very hard to make a call on this one. Maybe auto turrets :twisted:
     

  3. DAIadvisor

    DAIadvisor New Member

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    Arm those who wants to be armed. Get them trained and into schools. Same policy as air marshalls. You don't really know who is armed, only that someone is. In case something happens, they can stop the threat.
     
  4. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I think DAIadvisor has it right. I would simply remove the "gun free zones" that encompass schools (what a joke) and allow anyone with a carry permit to do so in class or in schools. I don't see any reason why even the lunch lady shouldn't be packing if she meets the qualifications/requirements and chooses to do so. Why not let the good guys have guns if they want to?

    However, I would probably toughen existing or add new laws concerning what happens if a minor gets ahold of your weapon in a school. We don't want some lazy teacher with a CCW permit leaving their pistol in the desk for whoever to come play with. Perhaps add a clause that require the pistol be on the teacher's person at all times and never left unattended when in a school?

    http://gunfacts.info/ has a great PDF that any gun enthusiest should read. It has a section dedicated to schools and "gun free zones" IIRC. Something certainly needs to be done to allow willing good guys the means to defend themselves and their students.
     
  5. EmesiS

    EmesiS Guest

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    I voted NO simply because age does not dictate maturity or responsibility. I have known many teachers that were spitefull, angry and otherwise vile humans; equally I can say the same of many students. There is never an appropriate time to introduce a double-standard; if students can't carry guns then niether should the teachers, unless of course concealed carry is approved for both students and teachers. We can no longer avoid the issues causing violence in schools - bad schools and bad parents! Oddly, many including the media blame guns for these violence issues in one breath then later advocate guns as the solution in another. Guns are not the problem, people are the problem; but if we create a law allowing teachers to carry in schools students will become the implied source of these violent outbreaks. Until education standards improve and students are not shut out by the system we should make guns as inexcessible as possible.
     
  6. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes Guest

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    Blaming a parent or a school (or the system) for a teen killing people is as bad as blaming a gun for killing people. Accountability lies only with the trigger-puller. Period. CCW is not available for people under 21. That means students can't get one. Teens are unpredictable and emotional. I certainly dont want them to have the ability of packing around anywhere, let alone schools.
     
  7. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    teachers should be allowed to.
    they should never be forced to.
    only willing participants that pass background checks and firearm training.
     
  8. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    +1 in response to EmesiS's post. If we're talking college level, I'm all for CCW with the students. If you meet the requirements (and that includes the age rule) and want to carry in schools, etc., I think you should be able to.

    Regarding arming teachers who are "spitefull, angry and otherwise vile humans", that's why we are not advocating mandatory carrying. It would be an extension of CCW - simply remove the school limit. Most people do not elect to carry - I would suspect those nasty teachers you are referring to wouldn't be any different. And if you fear there are those who would get the permit, and would actually carry, and then would do something really aweful, why would the gun free zone stop them? If they are crazy enough to pull their CCW and blast little Timmy into next Sunday, why would a gun free zone stop them? The restriction will simply ensure that the teacher in the next room will not have the ability to prevent further tragedy.

    Are you saying a teacher willing to commit murder won't be willing to violate the gun free zone rule, and thus the tragedy will be avoided? That's kinda like saying someone who steals a car wouldn't be willing to break the speed limit.

    What am I missing here? I suppose I'm struggling (though respectfully trying :)) to understand your arguement, EmesiS.
     
  9. EmesiS

    EmesiS Guest

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    My ultimate point is that guns are neither the problem nor the solution. But if we create a law allowing teachers to carry guns on school property we create a double standard. Obvioulsy high-school student aren't old enough for a CC permit but a rule allowing teachers to carry guns would divide an already stressed academic environment. Allowing teachers to carry guns in gun free zones would be adding another element to an already existing problem. We need to make school better by increasing funding an getting more parental involvement. I believe the violence is only a symptom of the real problem - Bad schools, Bad Parents and Social Neglect. I also believe that guns, gun ownership, gun rights etc... are a very difficult issues that our society feels deeply divided on and much like religion, abortion and other similar issues they need not be part of our schools ciriculum. I have no doubt we can resolve the education problems in our country with increased compassion and social awareness; we need not make education an issue that divides us futher by creating rules that infringe on parents rights to decide what appropriate gun usage is and is not. Personally I support gun rights, but I recognize and appreciate the feeling of those contrary to mine. If we keep guns out of schools as a law then we can avoid another difficult issue to bicker over. We need to direct our efforts to improve schools and make students as comfortable, happy, loved and responsible as possible and this can only happen if we unite. Guns in schools will divide our communities and the real problems will continue to grow while we argue over issues that do not address the real problems.
     
  10. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes Guest

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    Guns are already in our schools, in case you havent seen the news recently. What we are advocating is putting some of those guns in the hands of good guys. Having a law to keep them out is like saying you're not getting wet today because you passed a law saying the rain can't fall. Laws dont mean jack to criminals, that why they're criminals. Why do you think the schools have been preyed upon so? Hell, in Bailey, it was a 35 year old drifter, not some punk teen. Easy targets.
     
  11. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    And if we all gave up CCW tomorrow, that would give us another "difficult issue" to not bicker over. Wouldn't make it the right thing to do.

    I believe you are right about the social causes being the underlying cause of the issue, and that adding armed teachers to the equation is definitely not the answer. However, making drastic changes to social structure and parenting practices will not happen overnight. Another school shooting, on the other hand, may well happen tomorrow. Allowing the qualified and willing teachers the carry might make the difference now, or at least lesson the damage next time tragedy strikes.

    What steams me the most, taken from gunfacts.info pdf:
    Two were killed, seven were wounded.
     
  12. QPluralisT

    QPluralisT Guest

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    Syntax,
    College students are just as pervasive to wild emotions as those in highschool, this however is a subjective argument and not really measurable. Since only 1/3 of an average campus would be CCW due to the 21 age limit, it would be inneffective and create huge problems. How does this protect Sally Freshman on her walk back to the dorms at night? I have been to campuses where protests were common sites and occasionally police are called in to monitor that they don't get out of hand. What happens when a protest goes South and they are all armed? Rubber bullets and tear gas are anything but desireable, but real bullets...? College campuses are made for the free flow of ideas, allowing CCW on them would restrict that freedom which takes away from the intent of the University. So does losing their best and brightest, to their dimmest, but do we make Universities safe at the expense of higher learning?

    How would you respond, as the school board of a county, to parents of a child who lost her life due to a teacher going postal on her Honors Geometry class where you supplied a CCW to teachers? Would the answer "We were just trying to make our schools safer" comfort you as a parent? I'm not saying that issuing CCW to teachers would be completly ineffective, nor that the majority of teachers would handle it irresponsibly, but it only takes one mistake to derail the entire system. We need a simple and effective solution to the problem.

    Insuring that all schools have enough resource officers on hand to monitor the school during the day would be a great start. Creating only one or two entry points to a school during the day which are monitored 24/7 would help as well. Simple things folks, simple things.

    (Oh, and hello all! I've lurked here for awhile, waiting to turn 21 soon and join the Steyr Club a bit more officially. This site has great information and a great community, thanks in advance. Nothing like gun control to draw lurkers out of the wood work, eh? )
    :roll:
     
  13. Lurker

    Lurker Guest

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    Wow this is a tough one, I'm going to have to say I agree with just lifting the gun free zone restriction and just let the teachers decide if they are going to carry or not. Let's face it they're the ones with the most insight and knowledge on the subject and have more of a responsibilty on the matter than any of us. My sister is a teacher and not to fond of guns, she understands their use and purpose but prefers not to own any. But even she has told me that if she was in a situation like that she would want a gun to protect her students. Besides the alternative is having armed police and search checkpoints in our schools which isn't the answer either. In cases like that the children end up feeling like convicts locked up, and that kind of police presence is something that no one should get used to. But Emisis is right as well, it is a mix of bad parenting and bad school system, but just bad society in general.
     
  14. hud

    hud New Member

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    Having grown up in an era and place where we commonly took guns to school so we could go hunting after school, and no one got shot, I can readily see that the underlying problem is not firearms. We also carried our hunting knives on our belts regularly and had no knife fights or stabbings. The statistics I have seen show that the biggest single factor in creating criminals is the fact that there is not a father in the home. It is a bigger factor than ANY, ahead of race, income status etc. So yes, it is a social problem. the break up of the family. But we have that problem now to deal with unfortunately. I have to weigh in with syntax on this. No matter what the situation is, the local diner, club, or school, CCW will not stop a criminal from starting something. Obviously the laws don't either. Having other responsible people armed can however stop an attack sooner, and many times deter, or halt the attack before too much damage is done. We should remove the ban on CCW on school grounds and alow those who wish to carry.
    And guys, use your peckers as responsibly as your guns. Don't shoot at anything you don't want to hit.
     
  15. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    anyone notice the fact that the proposed legislature is in WI, one of only two states that has no CCW allowance at all :?:

    Legally and practicly I think allowing teachers and faculty the OPTION of becoming auxillary police officers is the only way I can see this as working. Thus the federal regs are met, and stipulations can be made for training (including mindset). This would have to be done on the county or local level however and proper training programs instituted (think something like OPS, or other big name school doing weekend training classes at the local P.D range).

    College and post-secondary institutions though I think should just be like any place else as far as ccw goes.
     
  16. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    It doesn't have to - but it might. Johnny Junior may well be a passerby and hear Sally's screams for help as she's being brutally assualted by 2 men. I don't know about you, but I'd have a hard time walking into a situation like that without a weapon. Sure, the right thing to do is call the police, but if assailant #1 has an uplifted knife and is about to stop all of Sally's ruckuss once and for all so other Johnny Junior's won't come running, Johnny's intervention is the only thing that will save Sally.

    On the other hand, Sally may make it back to the dorm just fine and Johnny will never need his CCW, but i anyone necessarily better off because Johnny can't carry on campus, but he can virtually everywhere else (with his CWP/CHL of course)?

    This is the exact same arguement that is commonly used against CCW in general. Just because someone has a weapon AND is emotionally charged, they are not necessarily going to commit murder! Why do people always try to make that massive leap? I've been enraged at friends/girlfriends/strangers on many, many occasions AND had a gun, but I'm sure as hell not going to shoot someone. People who carry get just as mad as everyone else - life tends to do that - and they don't just naturally reach for the pistol.

    I would respond the same way that I would to a teacher who illegally carried a gun into the school and mowed down the class. Again, if someone is crazy enough to do it, not having a CCW (or having gun-free zone law in place) isn't going to prevent them from bringing a gun. And I've already addressed the whole "emotionally charged situation" thing, so no need to reiterate that point.

    More resource officers is a great idea and the entry points would be effective, but as another member already pointed out - where do we draw the line? When does the campus become a penitentiary? I don't know about you, but cameras in every hall, police officers on every corner, constantly paranoid staff (teachers/administration), and metal detectors at every door aren't very conducive to a good learning environment. The highschool I attended had all but the 2 door idea, and it was definitely a distraction.
    However, I'm not advocating doing away with all of that if it helps keep the kids safe. I just think that arming teachers would be a less visable/distracting alternative that would probably be far more effective.

    BTW - Welcome! Always great to have another member onboard, even if they disagree with me :lol:
     
  17. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Member

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    I saw that, too, Chef. Here's hoping WI legislators see the light.

    I don't see how teachers should be police, though. They have enough to do as it is. I think it's already been said, arm and train those who wish to be, but overall get rid of this gun free zone bullsh8t. All it does is give any jerkoff with a gun and a grudge open season on the unarmed.
     
  18. Sound25

    Sound25 Guest

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    I live across the street from a Jr. High school, and about a month ago a child brought a gun to school. Thank God no one got hurt. But I would feel a lot more comfortable knowing that some teachers there were armed. I was lucky going through school, we didn't have metal detectors and the like, and I would have had a hard time conceintrating while a cop was walking from room to room. I completely agree that simply banning guns on property is not going to stop a gun from going to that property, if someone wants to go out and shoot someone, a law is not going to stop them. But I know that if I was in school, and knew that there was a chance that there may have been a few armed teachers, I would feel better because at least we would have a way of defending ourselves if the SHTF. The whole reason for CCW is so that you CAN defend yourself. Its not some right that allows you to go and shoot some poor guy for grins and giggles. I agree that society has changed over the past few years, and a lot of "kids" are not learning the value of life. This is not something that is just going to change because the PTA got together and said that the parents needed to instill disapline on their children. I wish that there were no gun bans, in any state, at any location. Why are you not allowed to carry a gun into a National Park? There is nothing to stop you from doing this other than the signs. So, you are out camping, and some jerk decides he wants your stuff, or your wife, etc, and HE is armed, but you followed the rules, and left your gun at home or locked in your trunk unloaded, what defense does that leave you? Not a lot. If you are at the bank, making a deposit, and someone tries to rob it, but again, you followed the law and left your weapon locked in your car, and this person draws a gun, who in there can defend your life? I am not saying that we should go out and break the law and carry in these places anyways, I am saying that we should be allowed to carry in there. I don't think that any of the laws are going to change anytime soon, but whenever there is a chance to vote for or against gun control and CCW, I make sure that I vote.
     
  19. QPluralisT

    QPluralisT Guest

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    Fully agreed, but part of the reason people CCW is because they can't trust someone else to always come to their aid.

    I am not connecting CCW with irrational action, I am connecting irrational people to rational response by those attempting to disperse a mob. My point was more along the lines of increasing security inversely affects individual freedoms. College campuses should be primarily about the latter.

    I agree, ultimately anyone who wants to do it will, but it looks a bit silly when the state so freely allowed a person like that on to a campus. I am not necessarily advocationg a "gun-free zone" as I am a situation that meets as many desires as possible. Finally, parents who do not wish to have firearms around their children should be taken into account. Despite their decisions being highly unfounded in my personal opinion, they do have the same right to determine what's best for their child's safety as... for the lack of a better term... pro-gun parents do. I suppose a middle ground would have to be agreed upon. Good luck with that, I'd rather be anywhere but that PTA meeting!

    From what I have gathered most of the recent attacks have been outsiders who walked freely into the school and commited their deeds, I feel a majority of these could have been prevented by a properly stationed Officer and requiring individuals to clearly check in at the front of the school. Really, this issue will temporarily die when we run out of copycats, or more realistically, when the media gets bored of reporting it and copycats stop hearing about it.

    The highschool I attended used both of the above, nothing fancy, just bottlenecked flow in while allowing outward emergency access. visitors were required to check in at the front, not doing so locked down the school. It was a very safe system low cost and highly efficient and as far as I know not designed by the Japanese :D

    I guess the problem comes down to acceptable loss. If only 1 kid died every year from a teacher misplacing his CCW(etc.), yet it saved the lives of 10 kids across the country is that an acceptable loss? Or should we find another way? Also, would this make teachers targets? If one of these sickos knows that the teacher is armed, won't teachers be immidiately dispatched? As of now, the teachers have been mostly brushed aside as the targets have been students, would this change how these crazies approach the situation?

    While I agree firearms are simple and effective crime deterrents, however in this situation, they add many complexities to an already complex issue.
    It'd be a bit boring if we all agreed, hehe. Thanks!
     
  20. Deluxe247

    Deluxe247 Supporting Member

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    [​IMG]

    Pretty sure it's not the right/PC thing to do but humorus none the less.

    -D