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Discussion Starter #1
Well im going to be 21 soon and i was discussing class 3 stuff with my dealer, and they asked if i wanted to order a surpressor as kind of a joke..i took them serious:joker: and now i got this idea in my head and i want some advice from ya'll. anyway so i dont have many bolt guns or any new assult rifles. i figured i would start with something small like my 17hmr savage * I know its already quiet and all* but i figured i would get my feet wet using it and i was told the supressors are pretty cheap for the small cailbers. WHAT silencers are of good quality materials and wont die out after 300 rounds? are some multi caliber? i heard they make one that will fit the 17hmr, 17hm2, and my 5.7x28. if thats the case that would be reallly cool. But is it legal to switch it from one rifle to the next or is that supressor dedicated to that gun kinda like the auto sears? I know some of ya'll have silencers and because so far no one has shown to be an ass when answering questions, i figured i would have better luck here than on the high road or 1911 forum. thanks for all the help guys. :p
 

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suppressors can be changed from gun to gun. most companies will not tell you if they can be used on multiple calibers, they would prefer to sell one for each caliber. some exceptions are out there. .308 suppressors can be used on 6.8 and .223, silencerco's osprey in .45 can be used on .40 and 9mm by swapping out the piston. i have a friend who is a class III dealer and he always tells me to buy one. i know if i do one will not be sufficient and i dont want to get that started.
 

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Hey Darkside,
I've been researching cans myself. I'm looking really hard at the Thompson Machine line. I almost dismissed them out of hand, due to their very low price. All the reviews I've found, however, have been very positive with most reviewers stating that they don't know how TM is selling them for such a low price. I'm looking really hard at either getting a Zephyr XL for the .22's or the Poseidon micro-can which will work on any caliber 9mm or below, including rimfires. The downside to the Poseidon is you have to mess with wipes for the lower calibers. Brooks at TM says that they start to degrade after several dozen firings and then have to be replaced but the wipes are really inexpensive and allow you to use one can on a ton of different guns.

Check out the reviews for 'em on the Silencer Talk forum. Oh, and they're located in Panacea, FL, so they're almost local. There's also quite a few youtube videos from TM talking about their cans. I had a couple email questions and Brooks responded quite quickly and answered my questions in a very friendly manner.

Thompson Machines will get quite a bit of my money should Florida ever pass the Firearms Freedom Act. :wall:
 

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Like majette said, they are not caliber specific. I'm not real familiar with the caliber you desire to suppress, but I imagine a .223 suppressor is what you're talking about. I am not aware of any manufacturer that make suppressors that fall apart with any sort of light use. Some are built with much more exotic metals to reduce weight or increase durability, but we're talking about full-auto extreme abuse sort of stuff... I would recommend you start by looking at Advanced Armament, Gemtech, SWR Manufacturing, Thompson Machine, or Yankee Hill Machine - they are all reputable dealers that make good stuff. I would also recommend joining SilencerTalk.com - that forum is a wealth of suppressor knowledge and I'm sure you will find tons of posts that better address your question.

When you begin the process, setup a Revocable Living Trust - do not waste time or extra money doing the "standard" class 3 route (in which you need a CLEO signature). If you are not familiar with this process, Google will turn up pages and pages of detailed instructions.

Be sure to post back when you're an official member of the club! :cheers:

EDIT: Jeez Narsil, you practically read my mind. :lol: Also, forum member ThaiBoxer has a lot of experience with Thompson Machine - he can probably answer any Q you might have specific to that manufacturer...
 

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Check your state gun laws. The above post about getting a local LEO signature is right. It can be a pain unless you live in the great state of TN as I do. It is state law that the local LEO has to sign your paperwork. The bottom line is they are not the approving authority the ATF is but the like to feel the power. A trust is great but can be a pain in the ass to get done. I have numerous cans and you want to stay away from the small companies. As far as 5.7mm goes there are a few companies that make good ones such as Gemtech and they will work with your caliber. Thread pitch is something to look at also if you want the can for several guns. As the above post stated you can use a 45 can on everything smaller that a 45. A 45 can on a 9mm will not be as quiet as a 9mm can but will still work pretty good.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for all the info im excited to start diving into this, I already have the curios and relic license stuff being shipped. Why is the trustfund thing a pain in the ass? Lol I can't just fill out the paper work send them their 200 and give the shop their cash then go home happy? And for the threads, I will be having my guns threaded by the shop that will order be the supressor so they should be able to make it do what I want, I hope lol.
 

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In order for an individual to own an NFA item, they must complete an ATF Form 4 and then wait for the ATF to approve it. That form requires the signature (hence permission) of a chief LEO in their district (chief of police, sheriff, state attorney general, etc.). Many of these individuals would prefer the mortals to not have NFA items at all, and certainly not in their jurisdiction. Most will not sign off Form 4's as a matter of procedure.

Enter trusts and corporations. Both can legally own NFA items. Neither requires CLEO signatures on the Form 4's. Booya! Corporations are a pain in the butt if you don't already have one due to ongoing fees and taxation issues.

An NFA trust, however, can be done by most any will maker software. The lawyers who make obscene amounts of money setting up trusts (I was quoted $600) will give you plenty of scare stories about what can happen when it isn't set up properly. The problem is that the scare stories happen to be true. You screw up your NFA trust paperwork, buy an NFA item through it and you not only do jail time up to ten years, pay up to a quarter million dollar fine, you also lose all your firearms. Not just the NFA items, every single firearm you own is confiscated by the ATF. I'm saving up for a properly executed trust. The ATF has not yet received the memo regarding the "kindler, gentler" methodology of conducting themselves.

Plenty of people use the willmaker softwares or just print off boilerplate forms off the internet to set up their trusts. My situation is a little different than most due to multiple family members being involved. If I were single and didn't care what happened to my items after I died, I'd use the software. In my case, even if I were the only person with access to and using the NFA items (which will not be the case), were I to die, the disposition of those items could cause major problems to my surviving family members. I want to make sure there are no more nasty surprises than my untimely demise, should it occur. :salute:
 

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Hey Darkside,
I've been researching cans myself. I'm looking really hard at the Thompson Machine line. I almost dismissed them out of hand, due to their very low price. All the reviews I've found, however, have been very positive with most reviewers stating that they don't know how TM is selling them for such a low price. I'm looking really hard at either getting a Zephyr XL for the .22's or the Poseidon micro-can which will work on any caliber 9mm or below, including rimfires. The downside to the Poseidon is you have to mess with wipes for the lower calibers. Brooks at TM says that they start to degrade after several dozen firings and then have to be replaced but the wipes are really inexpensive and allow you to use one can on a ton of different guns.

Check out the reviews for 'em on the Silencer Talk forum. Oh, and they're located in Panacea, FL, so they're almost local. There's also quite a few youtube videos from TM talking about their cans. I had a couple email questions and Brooks responded quite quickly and answered my questions in a very friendly manner.

Thompson Machines will get quite a bit of my money should Florida ever pass the Firearms Freedom Act. :wall:
i asked a buddy about those suppressors and he said they are cheap because the wipes are old technology. also you cannot have any spare wipes as they are considered parts and having spares is considered constructive intent by the atf for you to build your own suppressor. big no no. you have to remove the old wipes, destroy them, then make your new ones. so you can have a big square of the neoprene material, then once you cut up and burn the old wipes then you can cut out the replacements you need, no more. another drawback to the wipe technology is the bullet has to pass through multiple barriers that can cause it to deflect from a straight path so that causes accuracy to suffer. here is a DeGroat Nano. it is very small, disassembles for cleaning, and can have a wipe (the orange circular thing at the end):



website is: http://www.armamentsales.com/suppressors.htm

*note - not an endorsement of the above, just posting info.*
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Wow I knew it was a pain in the ass but dang. I think our sheriff will sign off we have alot of full autos up here, I will check it out next time im around the class 3 shop. Man it might be easier to do if I just wait another few years when im in law enforcement and it will hopefully be easier. Well maybe I should just do one thing at a time, ccw permit, curios and relics, graduate, and then start the hassel lol. I really appreciate all the info, my shop makes it sound like its a cake walk to get these things and it might be for them but obviously not for the average joe lol.
 

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...here is a DeGroat Nano. it is very small, disassembles for cleaning, and can have a wipe (the orange circular thing at the end):...*note - not an endorsement of the above, just posting info.*
What then is the difference between a TM Poseidon which can use wipes (but doesn't have to unless you're shooting smaller calibers) and the DTA NANO which also can use wipes, aside from the $200 price difference? I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest; it's just that $200 is a huge difference in price, not only percentage-wise but that $200 pays for the tax stamp. The only difference I really see is that the NANO is titanium.
 

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Ti is a lot harder to work with from what I understand, Narsil. The weight saving and extra tooling might make $200 difference...

I really appreciate all the info, my shop makes it sound like its a cake walk to get these things and it might be for them but obviously not for the average joe lol.
Yes, it is. That cake walk is about 2 months long, but it is really quite simple. (just call me Joe :)) I let the process intimidate me for about a year before I jumped in, and in hindsight it was silly - it's really quite simple. Once your trust is setup, it's simply a matter of submitting new forms and a check. Seriously - don't sweat it.
 

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The Poseidon is a lot quieter than the Nano.
 

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I had both heard that wipes were old technology and that they work significantly better than the non-wipes. I've never even held a real suppressor before but wipes seem like a bit of a pain. If, however, they work significantly better, they may be worth the ongoing price and inconvenience of destroying the old ones before cutting new ones.

Have you shot both, Ben?
 

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I had both heard that wipes were old technology and that they work significantly better than the non-wipes. I've never even held a real suppressor before but wipes seem like a bit of a pain. If, however, they work significantly better, they may be worth the ongoing price and inconvenience of destroying the old ones before cutting new ones.

Have you shot both, Ben?
I have a 9mm dry can (no wipes) and a 9mm Poseidon (wet can with a wipe). I also have been collecting reading about, and keeping up on silencers for awhile. So here's the story on wipes:
1) Old tech = true. So are most baffles designs in use today. The tweaking of detals makes the difference.
2) Accuracy degrading = true...but not always enough to matter

The major advantage of wipes in today's era is that you can make a very compact silencer. Period, end of debate.

The Poseidon and the Nano were both made as sexy, compact silencers to compare with the 8" long dry cans that are the current standard. Those cans are big and awkward. But they are not much hassle to use.

The Poseidon and Nano are small. They each have only one wipe, not a series of wipes like the Snap-On/Hushpuppy and a few other small, older designs. The Poseidon and Nano each do most of their silencing with a short baffle stack that is wetted with water, gel, grease, or something to help put out the fire of burning powder AND cool off the hot, expanding gases that make the noise. So these cans have 4 things to help quiet the blast 1) baffle stack, 2) water or gel 3) a wipe, and 4) volume to contain the blast.

IMHO, the Nano doesn't have enough volume to do the job properly, it's too skinny. The Nano has more baffles than the Poseidon, but it meters louder. The Poseidon does a pretty good job of making a 147 gr 9mm sound like a good pellet gun.

The wipe does not affect practical accuracy MOST of the time in my tests. Sometimes the bullet may not punch a clean hole punch thru the wipe, and that does deflect the bullet away and cause accuracy problems that are noticeable at 15-20 feet. This has occured once in the 20 or so wipes I've used. The majority of time, I see no marked change in accuracy up tp 60 feet, which is remarkable.

The wipes are supposed to be destroyed before making new ones. Cutting old wipes in in half should be fine, it totally destroys their use as a wipe. New wipes are simply small disks of rubber. Follow your conscience and tenderly kiss the BATFE's ass as seems correct.

So far with my tinkering and casual experiments, it seems like the wipe is the least important part in the Poseidon's array of 4 "quiet makers". Wet baffles seem to work pretty well.

The major advantage to me seems to be in a super compact 9mm can that suppresses as well as most of the big name dry 9mm silencers....but the brand new generation of dry cans is quieter.

So majette's buddy who said
majette's buddy said:
"...they are cheap because the wipes are old technology. also you cannot have any spare wipes as they are considered parts and having spares is considered constructive intent by the atf for you to build your own suppressor. big no no. you have to remove the old wipes, destroy them, then make your new ones. so you can have a big square of the neoprene material, then once you cut up and burn the old wipes then you can cut out the replacements you need, no more. another drawback to the wipe technology is the bullet has to pass through multiple barriers that can cause it to deflect from a straight path so that causes accuracy to suffer.
was partially right.

Thompson Machine has good quality of construction, and innovative design. They are a phenomenol deal and they seem to be a lean company with low overhead, and I bet their startup costs are nil as Thompson made/makes other industrial items before jumping into large commercial silencers mfg. Get some while you can, I expect their prices to rise.
 
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Wow...awesome reply! Thank you!

My only follow-up question is that I thought the Poseidon was a dual-wipe can that could use a rear wipe to prevent the ablative media from running back into your barrel if you tilted it back or somesuch. Have you ever tried it with both wipes and did it make any difference?
 

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Wow...awesome reply! Thank you!

My only follow-up question is that I thought the Poseidon was a dual-wipe can that could use a rear wipe to prevent the ablative media from running back into your barrel if you tilted it back or somesuch. Have you ever tried it with both wipes and did it make any difference?
Yes, I left out that detail. TM originally instructed to use a 1/8" wipe for the rear "ablative media stopper". Then they announced later that only a 1/16" wipe should be used. But...the 1/16" wipes are very floppy and have a tendency to blow loose. I've had 2 come back thru the eject port from back pressure! One of those caused a jam. A third time I found the 1/16" wipe downstream in the baffle stack. So guess what....? I don't use the "ablative media stopper wipe!" And with gel, it doesn't need it. Transporting with water or oil in the can, it would be smart. Gel or grease, no need.

The rear wipe does nothing for sound reduction.

Steyr_Poseidon.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #17
so now these cans being discussed would MURDER the accuracy of my 17hmr for any distance shooting? i mean hitting a blade of grass or water droplet causes the bullet to either be completely off course of fragment.
 

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Only a can with wipes would affect accuracy, and they do not make rifle cans that use wipes... Thai and the rest are purely discussing particular type of handgun suppressor. When you add anything to the barrel, like a suppressor, you change the barrel harmonics. As such, there will be a POI shift, and you will need to zero your rifle with the can mounted. Accuracy should not be degraded at all - you will simply need to find zero on the suppressed and unsuppressed setups.
 

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Just saw this video done by SilencerCo couple of minutes ago. They have actually tested out their three caliber sized suppressors/silencers on a Glock 35 that has a 357 Sig barrel by LWD. They run both Wet and Dry runs in all three caliber silencers and show the individual results as well as the A-weighted average.
:popcorn:

Youtube Link
[video=youtube;5a4HkRE5tNY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a4HkRE5tNY[/video]
 

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I've been thinking about a .45 Osprey and setting it up for my Steyr M40A1s. I already have an extended .40 barrel.
 
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