[DKHAN]

I was surfing for ammunition information and came across the following two sites that I thought would provide for some intersting discussions.

Wikipedia - Stopping power

http://www.firearmstactical.com

Both of these had some thought provoking rebuttals to the more popular information being published regarding effectiveness of ammunition.
Years ago I found some reloading data for a pistol hunting round. The loader in question used a swc hb soft lead bullet. He cut off the nose,turned it over and put on a gas check,thus creating a larger than available hollow point, a cup if you will. He swore by this as good for both man and beast. This was in an old book in the public library basement. The book also contained information on hunting w/.45acp and other rounds that now would be considered inadequate.
I understand that there has been progress made in this field, but I wonder if we had the answers already and have just created new solutions.
Thoughts ?

 

[RiceCakes]

New solution = new profits.

We had pistols 100 years ago. So why do they keep releasing new ones? Profits. Personally I think the type of round used is going to make a marginal difference compared to the number of holes you put in them, especially for self defense.
Sorry if I sound snappy, its early. I used to worry about the same thing all the time, then someone explained the same thing. With hunting, kinda the same thing but with shot placement instead of the number of holes. In fact having a bullet tear the animal up too bad is worse than tracking it for a little bit because you just destroy the meat, wasting the animal (or parts).

 

[ScottW]

Personally I think the type of round used is going to make a marginal difference compared to the location and number of holes you put in them, especially for self defense.

Fixed that for ya! Of course shot placement is a major consideration when hunting. However, it's even more critical in a self defense situation, when the meat you're trying to save is your own. :wink:

 

[RiceCakes]

Whoops, forgot about that location part. Very important also, of course. lol thanks

 

[ZEEK]

9mm Ballistics

This topic has been talked about extensively I'm sure, but as a newcomer to this site I am most curious and hope someone can comment or point me in the right direction.

I have read some interesting info on several different threads about this topic. Wwhew, so much information and so little time to shoot. I am just now getting back into target shooting, as a leisure hobby, and try to shoot 200-300 rnds on my 22's and 50-100 on my 9mm. weekly. I am still not sure what I should use as my defense ammo versus what I practice with using my M9.

I found some ballistic data at http://gunsandammomag.com/ballistics.html

Also good read and info at http://hornady.primediaoutdoors.com/HDstory2.html

If the ammo does not have a p, +p, +p+ or so on, I am guessing it is standard pressures. Seems I have read more than one time about limiting the use of hotter ammo as a practice round, to aid in extending the life of your gun. That makes sense to me. I beleive all the rounds I have personally shot have been standard rounds, no +'s or p's on the box. I also beleive is is good pactice to shoot practice rounds with your primary carry ammo.

It is my understanding that the energy delivered into target is directly related and proportional to penatration and expansion. I guess you need the best of both and ideal target placement for maximan energy transfer.

Maybe someone else knows more about self defense ammo and loads. I just know there are a lot of choices and it may be just a matter of personal choice.

There are probably more threads on this and I just have not seen them yet. This forum has a lot of input and information to try to absorb as I am new to the site. Any input or direction to look would be appreciated.

 

[revchuck]

Back in the 70s and 80s, there was a big difference in performance within a caliber, depending on the bullet. Now, there's not much difference among the current offerings - they're almost all good.

Pick something that you can get easily, and can afford. Put 200 rounds through your gun to make sure it works fairly reliably, using the mags you're going to use for carry/self-defense. If the gun doesn't make it through 200 rounds flawlessly, there's either a gun or an ammo problem, and you need to try again.

I use +P ammo in both 9x19 and .38 Special, and don't worry about it in larger calibers. My practice ammo is standard velocity, except for the .38 Special.

Bullet placement is the most important thing - and that concept has been around for centuries. Practice so that you can put the bullet where you need to under stress, and you'll be good to go. A good way to get used to shooting under stress is to shoot in competition. I prefer IDPA for this, but also shoot USPSA. Both require quick, accurate shooting under stress. Plus, you get to hang out with a bunch of good folks.

 

[ZEEK]

Chuck, sounds like you know what you are talking about.

I had not thought about doing that. I love shooting, but I am a young pup, a minor, a tiny grasshopper, still wet behind the ears, not no where near good enuff for competition shooting. Food for thought. Besides, I Don't know what ammo to use. :lol: Thanks.

 

[bigtaco]

hey man, you can go to a match and shoot bad. i've done it lots!!! you'd be surprised. i bet if you googled some practice drills and spent a couple weeks at home dry firing to complement your range time, you'd be far from the worst shooter there. even your first day out. just don't DQ. watch the 180 degree rule and listen to the range officer.

it helps if you can track down and befriend someone in that scene who can show you the ropes. but if you went by yourself and said you were brand new to this someone there will help you along.

shot placement would definitely get my vote for most important criteria. most people i know carry 9mm for this reason. it's easier to get multiple good hits with it then with a .50 AE.

but... .22 will also kill a human and you'd be hard pressed to find many people toting .22s.

the word is that the 5.7x28 round is an incredible man stopper because it causes immediate massive hemorrhaging. plus, zero recoil lets you shoot with confidence and get rapid multiple hits and the small diameter case means mag capacities out the roof!!

it'll never catch on though because we likes 'em big. houses, trucks, bullets... bigger is always better to most people.

i'd buy, (but we'll never see) a long slide m-series in 5.7x28 with a 24shot mag.

that being said. shoot winchester white box or cci blaser brass for practice.

and look into any of the personal defense ammos. they're all good, they've all got marketing gimmicks. they all make the best or worst or biggest or deepest wound channel. whatever.

most important is 100% reliable functioning, followed closely by accuracy. my steyr's will spray hydrashocks like a lawn sprinkler. i like winchester ranger sxt.

 

[ZEEK]

Bigtaco,

Not wanting to get off topic, but you mentioned the Five-seven.

I had a very interesting conversation a while back with one of the FFL dealers, where I like to buy supplies, who owns a 5.7x28 and has a FNH rep friend who sometimes pulls a ballistics trailer. He told me that they had test fired all the 190 ammo, (including now band ammo) and had some very interesting comments on the performance of all these rnds, including some test firings using level 3 kevlar and ballistic gellatin. I am indeed impressed with the USG model.

 

[bigtaco]

nice tease!!!

what were the comments? i don't have ballistic gel. if i did, i'd be throwing lawn darts, chain saws and kitchen sinks in it just to see what would happen!!!



i'm gonna guess that the rounds pierce any commonly available body armor short of trauma plates and that regardless of what they pass through, be it kevlar or a t-shirt, as soon as they hit the person, i mean gel, they instantly turn into seashell shaped shrapnel over three times original diameter with numerous lacerating cutting surfaces that look absolutely terrifying assuming they retain enough energy to penetrate the thickest muscle on the biggest dude where they can rip soft tissue to shreds.

but you may have much more detailed info that i, for one, would love to hear.

 

[ZEEK]

Sorry I took so long to reply, been on the road. To make a short story shorter:
I did not get as much detail as I would have liked to gotten, but basicly It all did penatrate on level III at least appr. 4". Degree of cavity was varied and so was depth. I did not think to ask about over penetration of any rounds (without body armor) It seems I read maybe in FNH Brochure about 190 duty round desind to tumble after penetration in soft material; ie flesh. Perhaps some one else has done some of their own tests and will share their results. Wait a minute we were talking about M9's. Anyway, May have to post to different forum, but I am going to try to get more info next time I get to chat with him in person.