Steyr/Mannlicher pocket autos

Discussion in 'Other Handguns' started by Buzz, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    Does anyone know where there is a site to view photos (and info) of earlier 20th century steyr/Mannlicher small semi-autos? I googled this and came up blank other than photos of the M1912. Thanks for any help.

    Buzz
     
  2. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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  3. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    I think I'm going to eventually go after the 1912, but, I was wrong about the gun that I was looking for being a Steyr. It was in the case next to my Astra 4000 and the guy at the shop had said that it was a Mannlicher. As it turns out, it wasn't. I took a look at Mausers on the Net and thought I found it. I drove over to the shop (once the UGA game traffic let up) and identified the gun as a Mauser 1914. The guy called it a Mannlicher again, but I think he was far-sided. I liked the gun just fine and once again found some really neat engineering. As this is a new shop for me I asked him whether the price was written in stone and he thought about it for a good while and asked me to make an offer. I countered at around 20% below asking and we settled at 15% below asking.

    Photos to follow. If you thought my Astra was ugly.... :lol:

    Buzz
     
  4. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    The Mauser (.32 ACP) [​IMG]
     
  5. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    [​IMG]

    You're right, Buzz. Compared to its ugly brute of a German cousin, that Astra's durn near pretty!

    They do share a sort of family resemblance with the art-deco lines, but where the Astra is sort of graceful but brutish, the Mauser is more like brutish with just a touch of grace.

    They may be only .32 ACP, but if somebody pointed either one of those brutes at me, I'd surrender without a fight.

    I have to admit I do share your interest in old pistols. They seem to have a sort of elegance that's missing from modern designs. A Mauser broomhandle couldn't really be called beautiful either, but I'd love to have one.

    I was tempted a while back to pick up a German pocket pistol I spotted in a local store, but just didn't have the cash for a safe queen while I'm still trying to expand my personal protection arsenal. It's still there because I saw it in the same gun store the other day when I was making the rounds, a Deutsche Werke Pocket Automatic .32 ACP caliber pistol Ortgies patent.

    But I gotta say, Buzz, the Ortgies is a whole lot prettier than your Astra or your Mauser. :mrgreen:

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    And speaking of broomhandle pistols, if you could find one of these rarities, a Bergmann Bayard M1910/21, I bet it would be worth a mint. It's chambered for the 9x21 Steyr and as the article notes, is one of the Triple Crown of early autos.

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  6. rlwood29

    rlwood29 Guest

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    Netfotoj;
    Thanks for posting the picture and link; the Deutsche Werks in 25 Auto was the first pistol I ever bought, never seen another one, never heard of another one, and I have learned more about it today then I have the whole time I have owned it (about 35 years). It truly is the perfect sized pocket pistol, save for the fact that 2” of excess girth would probably stop the round! Even with all the years on the little shooter, it is quite handsome.
     
  7. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    Net, there is a local shop here that has that Ortigies. I may have to go take another look at it. I had sort of looked over it as I was looking for an Astra 400, but since then my interest has expanded.

    The interesting thing is that when you begin to look at these older pistols you realize that there's less than you'd think that's brand new in the newer guns in terms of features. A lot of older features have been updated and incoporated into new designs.

    One thing's for sure, these guns are fun. The history behind them is often fascinating. Depending on condition and gun the price tags are often in the $200 to $300 range, which isn't all that bad. The Mauser is probably 75 to 80% (with a plumb coloring to much of it) which isn't bad for a gun that was made some time around World War I (Imperial stamped). The Imperial stamp indicates that the gun was approved for service. The gun was not standard issue.

    I do require any piece that I pick up to be fully functional with a good bore. I'm not interested in safe queens. These guns will be shot. The only thing that I'm going to do is treat the Mauser's wood grips with Watco's Danish Oil finish. The appearance will be unchanged but the grips will be protected. They are pretty banged up but that only adds to the charm of the gun. I hold one of these guns and wonder where they have been and who has used them, a chain of possession with the current possessor an artist/attorney from Georgia. That's a whole long way, in terms of years and miles, from Oberndorf am Neckar.

    I think I'd have to also put a Browning/FN 1910 on the list, which is very similar to the Ortigies. But for a funky looking gun that I'd shoot, that Steyr M1912 really grabs me.

    Buzz
     
  8. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Speaking of old Browning pistols, I saw a Colt Model 1905 .45 ACP in the same store where I found the hi-cap Llama .45, Mid South Guns in Wagram, NC. It didn't look near as pretty as this photo I found online and price was (correction) $2,495.99 (only off by 50% on what I posted earlier. Maybe I should try for a job as a weatherman. :oops:)

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    I went back by there today (11/5/07) to make a deposit on the Llama until I have time to shoot it and lo and behold, right beside the 1905 model was a Colt Model 1903 in .38 Rimless for a mere $2,195.99. Never heard of that caliber, but never mind. I am not going to be an old Colt collector.

    They also had a Colt Delta Elite, the 10mm model, which was also way out of my league price-wise at $795. I'll stick to the low-three-figure pistols. :mrgreen:
     
  9. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    I contacted the shop and inquired about the gun that I suspected to be an Ortigies. They'd had one in the past but the one there is a Melior, a Belgian pistol that outwardly looks a lot like like an FN 1910. While I'd eventually like a 1910, the Melior isn't quite what I want and is overpriced. I think I'll hold out for an Ortigies and hopefully a Sauer & Sohn 38H. They will be fun to hunt at gun shows.

    With that I turned my attention back to a gun that has been sitting at my main shop for months, a gun listed a a CZ28. This has confused the heck out of me as there is no such thing as a CZ28. I called the shop to confirm, once again, that's it's a 28 and they said that it was. So, I researched it and determined that it is a CZ24. The give away is the fact that it is a .380 and the wood grips. The 24 is the only .380 in the 26/27 style that was done. It features a rotating barrel lock. They're getting the "28" from the year of manufacture stamped on the side. My recollection is that the gun is in excellent condition to the point that I thought the year of manufacture would be much more recent. As it turns out the gun is possibly/probably worth well over twice what they are asking for it, assuming there are no issues. Very, very tempting. Here's one virtually identical to it (if my recollection serves) right down to the year of manufacture. After I vote today I may have to swing by the shop to take another look.

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  10. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    Gulp. But man, if that's the gun that you're looking for....

    Buzz
     
  11. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Not I, said the Little Red Hen. If I had $2,500 to spend on guns, I can think of somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen good pistols, rifles or shotguns that I would quickly spend that cash on. But a 19-ought Colt? Quoth the raven, nevermore. Well, actually, that would be never because I've never done such a thing not to do so nevermore. :mrgreen:
     
  12. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    I ended up grabbing the CZ 24. As soon as the slide was racked I knew It was a 24 when I saw the barrel rotate. The gun was built in 1928 and issued in 1930. The gun has the military issuance stamps as well as the regimental stamps on the front of the grip/frame. The pre-war CZs are the most desirable of the early guns. The craftsmanship of this gun is outstanding.

    The finish is at about 75 to 80% with some very light pitting. It looks to me like the gun sat for a long time in a holster. In the shop the bore looked a bit questionable, but once I was able to run a brush through it I was pleased to find excellent condition. The internals look very nice and the rotating barrel system is way funky. The wood grips are in overall good condition. I did apply a coat of Watco's Danish oil finish to them. The grips still look the exact same although I know that they now have a mamximum deep penetrating finish that will protect them. I will leave the gun itself in its current finish. There was some gunk between the slide serrations but that was easily removed with a toothpick and some CLP. I could sell the gun for a good deal more than I paid for it, but I'm just satisfied that I didn't pay too much. The gun came with two mags, one original and the other aftermarket. The aftermarket doesn't hold the slide open. As with the Mauser, a stout metal follower is used to hold the slide open. The aftermarket mag with its plastic follower has not been built for this function.

    As an interesting aside, the gun has the exact same safety as the Mauser shown above, a slide engaging the safety and a button releasing it. The Mauser is designed better in terms of ergonomics and ease of operation. I'm going to be very interested in the quality of the Steyr M1912 when I can get my hands one on.

    Here it is. Sorry, I can't resist showing these older guns in black and white :oops:

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  13. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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  14. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    HeHeHe....

    ...try to find magazines for those beauties!!!!!


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  15. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    Hey Babj, I think the 1912 uses stripper clips rather than magazines (but you knew that!)

    In general magazines are surprisingly available for these older pocket autos. Numrich's has a good supply and there is one ofther site whose name I can't recall (but I have it bookmarked).

    Netfotoj, thanks for showing me that Ortgies. As I wrote elsewhere I called a local shop that I though had one and the guy told me that it was a Belgian Melior, a gun that doesn;t hold much interest for me. I've been watching Ortgies on auctions hoping to find the right one. This morning I went to that shop that has the Melior to pick up some ammo and sitting in the case, right below the Melior was a very nice Ortgies, in fact the one that you see below. I left the shop very tempted but since I was a bad boy yesterday I left with only the ammo that I had come for. I got half way home and turned around and went back and got it after a quick stop at the bank. Bad timing but darn nice gun.

    Conservatively it's probably 80 to 85% with just a bit of pitting on the top of the slide on the left side. I suspect it probably sat in a holster for along time. Previous owners were right handed as only the slide serrations on the left side were filled with gunk (just a fun guess), but cleaned up nicely. The gun is striker fired and cocking the gun causes a grip safety, the entire length of the grip, to extend out the back 1911 style. Pushing the grip safety in causes a spring-tensioned audible click putting the gun into firing condition. The round button at the rear of the top of the grip, which can easily be activated by hitting it with the side of your thumb, causes the grip safety to pop back out putting the gun into a safe condition. I'm trying to figure out of this safe action cocks the stiker to any degree like the HK P7. If so, it's a squeezecocker. The rifling is in outstanding condition. It really isn't that small of a small gun. The magazine is a replacement so I'll be looking for a few originals. The stampings and grip medallion is different that the one that Netfotoj has shown, so I'll see where this gun fits in historically. Based on some fouling the gun appears to have been shot fairly recently, so it is a shooter.

    For anyone interested in the gun here is the history. http://ortgies.net/ortgies0015.htm

    Buzz

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  16. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Sorry Buzz, didn't mean to cause your wallet more pain and suffering. :mrgreen:

    Now you've made me want to go down to my local gunshop and see if the Ortgies I saw is still there. But I depleted my pistol fund with the Llama IX-C so no go.

    Anyway, congrats on the Ortgies, she's mighty pretty. They just aren't making lines like that in today's pistols.

    Speaking of classics, while I was researching Ferdinand Mannlicher, I ran across this page with quite a bit of info on the The Austrian Steyr-Hahn Pistol M1911/M1912. :mrgreen:

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  17. Buzz

    Buzz Premium Member

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    Net, the Ortgies is a slick pistol. The Art Deco styling is wonderful. It is one solid piece.

    There are some tricks to breaking it down and re-assembly, but once learned it is easy.

    The grip safety system is unique. It's not like a 1911 where constant pressure is required, or like an HK squeezecocker. Once the safety is pushed in the gun will fire until that button is pushed in which withdraws the safety back into the grip. The safety systems on these early 20th Century semi-autos are fascinating and half the fun of owning them.

    By the way, that article that I linked to is about as good as it gets. My gun is from some time around 1924 a bit later in the Ortgies history made during a [eriod which is called the "Fourth Address" period based upon the stampings on the gun. The gun you referenced in the photo was very late production with the crouching tiger logo (that medallion logo is a crouching tiger with its tail in the air). The intertwined "HO" (Heinrich Ortgies) on the medalion on my gun is indicative of mid to early production. The walnut grips are retained without a screw by a rather clever internal system. The gun does have a rarity factor based on the serial number and the presence of the button safety release as well as an extra proof mark on the slide. That doesn't interest me so much but is fun to know. I also found out that my magazine is an Ortgies mag
    (the nickel plating threw me) but I found a very faint Ortgies logo stamp on the side. It probably isn't original to this particular gun as it has the later crouching tiger logo.

    It amazes me how much one can learn about a gun bought 90 years later, half a world away, with twenty minutes of research on the Internet.

    By the way, a Steyr Hahn 1911/12 is definitely in my future.

    Buzz