"Six rounds ain't enough!"

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Netfotoj, Mar 25, 2007.

  1. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    That's what a friend of mine said the other Monday morning, first words out of his mouth when I saw him.

    He had been off with his wife to visit their daughter in another N.C. city and they went out to a mall to do some shopping.

    My friend's favorite carry gun is a .380 Kel-Tec and he had it tucked away as usual, mag loaded with six rounds but without a round in the chamber.

    They come out of the mall and as they're walking toward their car, they see two bunches of young guys faced off, yelling at each other. Another shopper says "Don't go over there. That's two gangs getting ready to fight!"

    But the gangs were clustered near my friend's car, so he had to go over there. He told his wife and daughter to wait and carefully circled around the gangs to get to his car, all the while thinking about those six .380 rounds in his magazine and saying over and over to himself, "Six rounds ain't going to be enough!"

    He got his car safely away from the gangs and picked up his wife and daughter and as they are leaving, suddenly cop cars descend from all directions to surround the gangs. He left, so he doesn't know the outcome.

    But it was definitely one of those "Aha!" moments. His little Kel-Tec .380 just didn't seem quite as adequate for protection of himself and his loved ones as it did before.

    And he bought the Kel-Tec after deciding that his little Beretta "pop-up barrel" .22 auto was not enough gun.

    Now he's in the market for something more powerful and with more capacity. Better late than never, I told him.

    I've been telling him about the great deals right now for M40-A1s and M9-A1s. I think he's listening now. :mrgreen:
     
  2. matt13

    matt13 Premium Member

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    I can relate to that. I have a .380 that holds 7 in the mag. Sure it's easier to conceal but I think having twice the rounds makes up for the extra effort needed to conceal my MA1 9mm.
     

  3. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I'm in the same boat - my little Bersa Thunder .380 just doesn't seem adequate when I think about it sometimes. I really try not to carry my wheel gun or .380 when I'm going out into "the real world". I usually drag them along to work - or anytime I know I won't carry a fullsize pistol but would still like to be armed.
     
  4. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    so..........

    Carry Extra Magazines????

    My P9 hold only 7, but I always carry 2 extra mags....

    ....Maybe I should carry an extra P9 also :wink:
     
  5. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I guess it's just the fact that it is 8 rounds of .380 - I would feel a lot more comfy with 8 rounds of .45 instead. And if one expects to need more shots on target to do the same job, the idea of reloading while other guys are bearing down on you isn't very appealing. Still, if 5 guys are converging on me, I don't expect 4 to keep coming after dumping several rounds into the 5th. But ya never know - seems to me that 15+1 from the M9A1 fits the bill in almost any scenario, no matter how unlikely...
     
  6. ThaiBoxer

    ThaiBoxer Active Member

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    He didn't have to go over to his car, he wanted to. I can't say I blame him, but if he was actually worried for his safety and that of his wife, he'd back off, wait for the idiots to dissipate, and swallow the irritating inconvenience of it all. Not even a thousand extra rounds in the clip would make him or his wife bullet-proof if a gunfight starts.

    I do think you are better off with an extra, loaded pistol and a "New York reload" than you are with an extra mag.

    JMO,

    Ben
     
  7. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    I personaly only carry 5rounds of .38+p on me regularly.
    Personaly I would not have gone over to my car in that situation if I had a 100 round AR15.
    It is just a car, I'm sure there was another store in the mall that could've used another stop :lol: By his own description it was only moments untill police showed up, I'm sure the officers would have let him pick up his car and leave then.

    Situational awareness is more important than how much firepower you have. If I'm trapped in a line of cars waiting to get out of a shopping center and the "hungry vet" going from car to car decides to get rough then I truly could not get away and i would feel good w/ 5 shots of +p. If there is a budding gang fight in the parking lot though, being elsewhere is the best bet.
     
  8. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    With 2 gangs, 15+1 might not be enough.
     
  9. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    Quite right, but with 2 gangs, 15+1 Green Berets might not be enough to save you from all the stray bullets :wink:. Of course we are never ready for all situations and circumstances. I just think that 15+1 9mm will be enough to handle anything I would be capable of handling by my lonesome with a handgun. YMMV...
     
  10. smores

    smores Guest

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    A .380 with 7 rounds is better than an empty pocket with no gun or even a knife. Of course a larger caliber gun would be better, but those small ones tuck away so well!

    I'm reading a book by Massad Ayoob called "Combat Handgunnery" right now. Here's one passage where he describes the pros/cons of small-caliber easily concealable guns:

    "Let me tell you about one of my clients. He was a hunter and target shooter who owned some fine rifles and shotguns. The only handgun he owned was a gift from a friend, a Smith & Wesson .22 Kit Gun. He took it on hunting trips. He would while away the slow times plinking at tin cans from the porch of the hunting cabin, and the little .22 also allowed him to quickly dispatch a downed deer without damaging the skull for mounting. The night came when a burglar alarm went off in his home, telling him a flower shop he owned was being broken into for the umpteenth time.

    If he had gone intending to kill someone, he would have loaded his .30/06 auto rifle or one of his 12-gauge shotguns. Thinking about protection, he grabbed his only handgun, the little .22 and loaded it on the way to the shop. Given the lateness of past police responses in his community in which the cops were heavily burdened with calls, it was his intent to frighten away the intruders. But when he got to the scene he was attacked. He fired to shots and the attacker fled.

    It reinforced both sides of the issue. If the guy ran, he wasn't incapacitated. Yes. I know. That's why I don't recommend .22s. That guy ran a mile before he bled to death! Yes. I know. That's why I don't recommend .22s. If that guy had gone into fight mode instead of flight mode he could have still killed your client! Yes. I know. That's why I don't recommend .22s. Then why are you talking about this as if his having a .22 was a good thing? Because the circumstances were such that a .22 was the only gun he would have had with him...and it saved his life. End of story.
     
  11. Wulf

    Wulf Premium Member

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    Reminds me of the ol' addage, "...22 in the hand is better than a 45 in the truck....". Course, a 357 SIG point blank ain't nothin' ta laff at. :roll:

    Wulf
     
  12. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    to me, this whole thing just re-inforces the s40 being the ultimate carry rig.

    there are larger guns with more capacity. but they become somewhat burdensome and difficut to conceal on a daily basis. making them likely to be in the truck or in the safe more often than they should. no matter how much i try, that extra 1/2" of grip always prints.

    there are much smaller and lighter guns, but you sacrifice the capacity that modern autoloaders with double stack magazines allow, returning us to the 6 shooter, in which case i'd much prefer a wheel gun.

    the s40 becomes the best compromise imho. nice big .40 round. (not returning to the caliber debate!!). 11 rounds in the gun. then a m40 spare mag, giving you 12 more ready to rock. in a package that is very concealable, though not as small as the little pocket guns. i carried for over a year without anyone i worked with knowing. all while being INCREDIBLY accurate.

    the only other carry gun that i could consider buying, would be a STEYR (never glock) s45. but i want 11 rounds on tap.


    funny to me you've brought up the hunter with the .22 for game dispatching. i toted a .22 llama for a couple of years for just this purpose. finally had a doe down but kicking. pulled the .22 and pulled the trigger... nothing. lost the mag somewhere and the magazine "safety" locked 'er up. decided then and there that there is nothing safe about a weapon that won't fire. could've been a bad guy!!! and 1 round is better than none!!

    but to the start of this. he definitely didn't "have" to go to the car. luckily it ended without incident.

    a back up gun? yeah... i guess it makes sense. kinda...

    is it the same gun? or do you have two different spare mags to keep track of? most auto loader failures are mag related. so you gotta keep a spare mag to recharge if necessary for malfunction reasons.

    what do you do with the first gun? throw it down?

    are any of us actually going to tote two every single day? do you train to transition between the two?

    all kinds of variables are introduced in this scenario. they've never been worth pursuing to me.
     
  13. ThaiBoxer

    ThaiBoxer Active Member

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    If you are in a position "of increased liklihood to get in gunfight", whatever that may be, then yes, an extra pistol is better than a reload. Yep, just toss the malfunctioning or empty piece, or throw it at the SOB, and grab the loaded, ready to go one. You can pull a backup pistol faster than you can clear and reload, unless it is on an ankle rig. A fresh mag won't help a number of problems that you might encounter, including a pistol that has been hit by fire or dropped in scuffle/wounding.

    In my area, profession, and lifestyle, I am highly unlikely to ever need to fire my pistol, let alone a series of shots. I hardly ever carry a reload for my Steyr or 1911, and even more rarely will I carry 2 pistols. But if I was in the biz (LEO, gun/jewelry store, etc) and had to be serious, I'd have one strong-side primary on the belt and one weak-side J-frame or Kahr in the pocket.

    JMO,

    Ben
     
  14. DocChronos

    DocChronos Premium Member

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    I forget whether I first saw this article on this forum, but here is a solution for those who expect to be in a gun fight:

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_82533205

    Personally, I carry whichever gun fits the situation. I am in public a lot, and for those times I put my NAA .32 in my back pocket with a spare mag in a front pocket. When circumstances are right, I can bump up to any caliber that fits, including a 7-1/2 inch Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 Magnum on my belt. My philosophy is that ANY gun is better than no gun.

    Doc
     
  15. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    oh... thai boxer. no doubt. if i were a leo, i'd want a back-up for my back-up weapon for sure.

    i was coming at it from the ccw perspective. and asserting that for most of us it is impractical to carry two guns everyday. that inexplicably, i notice most ccw holders not even carrying a spare mag.

    that was a nice article.

    i personally would be much more inclined to keep the weapon on my person. this to keep it out of innocent hands. but i've never had a job where i sat behind the same counter for nearly the entire day. if that were my permanent situation, i might feel differently depending on the relative difficulty of customers and their kids getting behind the counter.
     
  16. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    Just remember that there is a trade-off between smallness and convenience, and the ability to get a good grip during a fast draw when the adrenalin is starting to make your fingers feel like blocks of jello.
     
  17. ThaiBoxer

    ThaiBoxer Active Member

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    Good reason to practice drawing while back-pedaling, moving sideways, or pushing on office chair away while you step back through a doorway.
     
  18. Angel

    Angel Guest

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    Guy at the gunshop this weekend told me that "if you can't hit the person with 6 rounds then throw the gun at him and run".

    I thought he was funny, but opt to have at least 10 rounds when I carry.
     
  19. posterboy7

    posterboy7 New Member

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    It was poor judgment for this guy to go to his car for all the reasons already mentioned. Here is another reason: if he had had to draw and fire at one or more of those gang members and even in the best case senario where he shot one non-fatally and chased everyone off, his defense in court would be very difficult since he knowingly walked into a dangerous situation he did not need to be in. Even if he had only had to brandish his gun, and the cops showed up at that moment, he could have been in legal trouble.

    Legal issues aside, the worst case senario would have been that he triggered a multi-shooter gunfight that resulted in stray bullets hitting and killing one or more bystanders. That is a world of shit right there. Guilt and possibly prison and possibly the lost of a loved one. There are things worse than death, in my book.
     
  20. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I agree - if you haven't hit the guy after 6 rounds, you are probably in trouble. But then you never know how many guys there will be - better to err on the side of caution IMHO.