Second range report

Discussion in 'M, C, L and S Series' started by bmitchell, Aug 2, 2007.

  1. bmitchell

    bmitchell Premium Member

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    I put 299 cheap white box (of which one was mangled out of the box) through the M9A1. I felt brass a total of four times, once on my extended arm, once on my chest, once (and I'm not sure about this one) on my head, and once caught my collar (but did not reside therein like some 7.62x39s have been known to do). I had two failures to extract after I had fired a couple mags rather quickly and the piece was pretty hot (as it seems to get when you go for almost 300 in little over an hour). The two FTEs came near the end of the last mag, IIRC once the fourth to last and once the second to last. I had been having some fun with firing fast, some double tapping and whatnot just to get a feel for it and for the sheer pleasure of making lots of things go fast at other things.
    Out of a total 414 rounds, I'd say that two failures isn't bad.
    Can someone give me an insight on whether or not overheating may be a cause? I'm ruling out cheap ammo unless it is a last-resort scapegoat.

    As far as hitting my targets, I find that sometimes I hit more accurately when I line the traps up so that the edges of the front triangle just barely touch the rear trap arms, looking like a pointed ziggurat rather than a triangle or trapezoid.
    I also noticed that at greater range I shot about the same, no pattern to speak of except for generally low all-around.
    No photos from this one, I don't think they would do the pistol justice.

    I'm not one to notice trigger pull being off since it is so much stronger than my other pistols, but my roommate said he thought it was a little rough. It was his first time firing a pistol, but he has a Beretta Cougar with a really soft trigger pull. Maybe I'll try the polishing at some point.

    2 FTEs out of 414, what do you guys think? I think a stainless guide rod would be choice. Maybe next week or so.

    Also, what is the consensus on Remington Golden Sabers? They are heck expensive where I got this first box but I haven't fired any yet (I don't want it getting used to the nice stuff).

    I love this gun.
    That is all.

    Ben
     
  2. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    Golden Saber's are excellent stuff very reliable expansion

    2 in 414 better than I had with my first M40 though problems with that were due to new magazines and springs that needed some working in.
     

  3. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I would wager that you are seriously limp wristing it towards the end of the session and that may be the cause of your failures - you said that it was at the end of your range session, right? How long was your range trip? 299 rounds can be a lot if you are throwing it downrange in 30-45 minutes. I am an honest guy, and in a 30-45 minutes session I have found my comfort level to be 100-150 rounds. Shooting slower is better than throwing lead downrange - you get to learn from your mistakes and develop more skill (read more quality time learning your trigger) than you do dumping mags downrange. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast - let speed develop naturally with time.

    Overheating is definitely not an issue - my friend and I have put at least twice that each through our guns on single outings (about 3 hours of rangetime). Also, in my experience CCI runs a LOT more smooth than WWB, though my gun will digest both. I've never had an issue with CCI, but I did have a few FTE's with WWB in the first 500 rounds. It was probably just a break in thing, but CCI is higher quality stuff IMHO (I find glue from the packaging on WWB brass a lot).

    I'm curious - what cleaning solvent and what type of lubrication are you using? Is this a CDNN gun (I forgot :oops:)? It may need a deep cleaning - I'll walk you through it one night on IRC if you like - it's really not hard at all, and I could use the excuse to clean some of the lint off mine. :lol:

    Golden Sabers are considered top echelon stuff - what weight and pressure (standard or +P)? The bonded stuff is even better - in some weights and caliber, Golden Sabers are known to have jacket and core seperation issues. If you are looking for a quality defense load, I would recommend Winchester Ranger 147gr., Federal Hi-Shok Tactical (HST) 147gr., Winchester Ranger 127gr. +P+, any >= 124gr. (standard or +P) Speer Gold Dot, and any >= 124gr. Golden Saber (standard or +P) - in that order, best to almost best. The cutting edge 147gr. stuff will outperform the rest these days - I used to be a 127 +P+ junkie. Everything I listed works really well and you're really just splitting hairs picking one over the other.
     
  4. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    you're almost done with the break in period. 186 to go!!!

    i think another good thorough cleaning will get you through the next session. after the 600th round, give ANOTHER thorough cleaning.


    only then should you start to worry if you're still having problems.
     
  5. bmitchell

    bmitchell Premium Member

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    Well, I wouldn't have thought I was dropping any power in my wrist by the end, but it is certainly possible. The entire trip was about 1:20 from getting there to leaving, but we had a limited time since our range closes at sundown and we were late to get out there. As far as cleaning and lubicant I have a little Hoppe's 9 set with the Hoppe's 9 brand of both solvent and lubricant that I have used both times I have cleaned. I have not gone further than a 4 part takedown, so removal of the trigger assembly from the frame and a thorough cleaning may help. I bought this gun at a pawn shop which listed it as being new, and considering the condition and the fact that one of the mags was still in the plastic I don't doubt that it was not used, but may have been sitting around for who knows how long. A deep clean couldn't hurt, though.
    That is good to know; I'm trying not to be too picky about specific loads, but I'm glad to hear that I'm not buying junk (except for the WWB). The stuff I have (only 25 rounds, so not even two mags) is 124gr standard Golden Saber. I'll look into the Ranger series next.

    BT, I'm gonna want to get one of those guide rods soon, once I get finished with the 600 round mark or so to make sure I don't have any problems.
    How difficult is the trigger polish job and what sort of tools would I need? I'm not sure if I need to do this since the pull feels fairly consistent and smooth, but if I can trim off any crunch in the squeeze or make it smoother I want to do so.

    One other odd point of interest for me was that when I took the slide off this time after returning home, it seemed to have a little grit that looked conspicuously like gunpowder on and around (but not inside) the firing pin housing and surrounding surfaces. I'm not sure if this is normal or not but I'm not worried about it.

    That is all.
    Ben
     
  6. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes Guest

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    Make sure you get it lubed nicely. Mine doesnt like to be dry. If I dont lube it good, it will throw a failure in occasionaly. And a +1 on the clean. Make sure nothing is in there, get some miltech, or other good lube stuff on all those inner parts. Also, if its older, you may have an older trigger assembly. Is the trigger pivot closer to the bottom or in the middle?
     
  7. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    reply to bmitchell

    first of all, i just bashed my thumb with a hammer. if you've never done it... i wouldn't recommend it.

    i think that the grit you noticed around the firing could also be around your extractor. might be a literal fly in the ointment; and cleaning your extractor may help things out considerably. especially if the gun is "new" which really means "sat around for a long time and all the oil applied at the factory has turned into gunk" remember that the springs are steel without teniffer, they get treated with a dab of cosmoline to keep them rust free. now that you own the gun... it's your job to keep it rust free so get the cosmoline out of the mags, out of the extractor channel, out of the firing pin assembly and out of the sub-frame. you'll notice everything smooths out.


    i don't think trigger polish is hard. i think it takes a very long period of undivided attention to miniscule detail. with a working mechnical knowledge base that allows you to judge too much from too little. sometimes i can remove an entire casting mark. sometimes i can't.

    as far as tools... you need an infinite axis milling machine (hands) and quick change tooling (plenty of 1000 grit sandpaper with some oil to suspend the abrasive slurry).

    you'll need a "medium' size and a "small" size jewelers screwdriver to push out the pins. you need some sort of square that's REALLY square to check the trigger bar bend. a framers or carpenter's square isn't good enough (for me atleast) and you need something FLAT. not countertop flat...FLAT flat. i use a mirror. no plastic mirrors!!
     
  8. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    sarchastic reply to syntax

    friends don't let friends shoot federal.

    since we're friends, i can't let you shoot federal. please go to the range and dispose of any federal you have in order that we may remain cordial.
     
  9. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    LOL - I'm a dedicated follower of the Winchester Ranger cult - no Federal here - but there is nothing wrong with their latest and greatest HST rounds - they perform on par with everything else out there that is worth spending money on. I'm usually not a Federal fan, but a good bullet is a good bullet regardless of my personal disdain for the company who makes it. Now if I had mentioned antiquated HydraShoks or something - then I would have earned a lecture... :lol:

    Ben - your extractor, plunger and the channel it all sits in are probably all gunked up. You will only need a small, sturdy flathead screwdriver to remove those parts and maybe a few Q-Tips to get in there and really get it clean. I'd leave the trigger alone until you either decide you can't live with it, or at least until you've cleared 500-1000 rounds and have had a chance to get the hang of it. If it doesn't bother you one bit, but your buddy tells you it's gritty - so what? It isn't worth addressing unless you are bothered.

    And RiceCakes has it right with the Militec-1 suggestion. Eezox is good stuff, too. MPro7 is excellent cleaning solvent, but there is nothing wrong with Hoppes 9, either.
     
  10. bmitchell

    bmitchell Premium Member

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    I should be able to get the extractor and related parts out for cleaning with some time and one of the walkthroughs on the maintenance page. I'll try that and maybe a deep clean before I go back for another round at the range. I never thought it would be possible for there to exist such a thing as a firing range that could be used by the public for free. It is so great and so far almost empty every time I've gone.
    I also need to find out where to get high-visibility targets as I am having trouble seeing where I'm hitting on the cheap targets I've been using. someone left an orange one out there with nothing but like two holes way out to the rim, and it was a delight to see what I was doing with each shot.

    I'm leaning further and further toward operator failure as an explanation for the two malfunctions; I may indeed have been "limp wristing" at the point that I had the two FTEs.

    I'm not going to worry about the trigger polish unless I have a lot of time and nothing else to do. I don't think it is necessary for now and I'm not sure where all my little screwdrivers went... My roommate's diagnosis of my trigger is mainly due to the fact (I think) that he had only ever fired one pistol before, and that was his Cougar with a trigger that I can only liken to the film on homemade cholocate pudding. VERY light and smooth. Having only ever used very light triggers myself, I can't really tell if the pull is rough or just heavier, but I'll bet most of the percieved roughness is due to the weight of it.

    RiceCakes, I'm not sure what you mean by the "trigger pivot", but if I take your meaning correctly I'd say closer to the middle.
    I'll be looking around for some other options for solvents as the little spray bottle feels like it's getting low.

    BT, I have indeed been victim to the great calamity known as the hammer-to-thumb movement. It is always sad to hear that this tragedy has struck again. I'm a hammer man myself; I love those things. Tackhammers not so much.

    Thanks for your input, guys.

    That is all.

    Ben
     
  11. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    Golden Sabres should be fine, although I prefer Win Ranger and Speer Gold Dots myself.
    I would leave the trigger alone at this point.
     
  12. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    Ben - next time I see you on IRC, remind me to send you a ZIP of some targets - I probably have close to 1000 you can print out and some offer very good visibility. If you are looking for something commercial, those black ones that turn highlighter yellow around the POI are tough to beat...
     
  13. bmitchell

    bmitchell Premium Member

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    That's what I'm looking for, the ones that show bright around the POI. The orange was very good for me.

    I'll see what I can find at the sporting goods store. Something printable could be good too, so I'll take you up on that offer when the opportunity presents itself.

    That is all.

    Ben
     
  14. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes Guest

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    [​IMG]

    Click for bigger pic. The little pin. On the pic, its at the "new" spot. Originally, it came at "old". Its worth checking. For me, a light coat of miltech everywhere, including the firing pin spring and sear, lightens and smoothens everything a little bit. Remember, these are defensive weapons, when your adrenaline is pumping like crazy, so needing a little force on the trigger can be a good thing :wink:
     
  15. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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  16. bmitchell

    bmitchell Premium Member

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    Trigger pin

    Mine is up high on the trigger. I don't mind the pull but I'm certainly not used to it yet.
     
  17. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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