Scope Questions [What is YOUR Favorite???]

Discussion in 'Other Rifles' started by babj615, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

    I have researched the MOA term used when describing different scopes....

    I recently purchased my first rifle and am trying to decide on optics for it.

    Can anyone please simplify what I need to know [real world] about MOA when I choose a scope?

    Thank You!!

  2. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

    MOA simply means minute of arc (also commonly angle). it's a common benchmark of rifle accuracy.

    a circle is 360 degrees. one degree is divided into sixty minutes. one minute can be divided to 60 seconds.

    one minute of one degree, extended to 100 yards is around 1.04"

    moa on a scope is refering to the clicks. 1/4 clicks move the bullet location 1/4". 1/8th clicks move the bullet 1/8th of an inch.

    if you're shopping for a scope, go for resolution. resolution is the ability of the human eye to distinguish between a white and a black line at a given distance. the higher the resolution, the better picture the eye will receive of the target. the odds of finding a high resolution scope with 1/4 clicks is pretty slim.

    there's no magic to building a scope. you're paying for glass. and write that check with a smile!!!

    a $100 rifle with a $1000 scope will out shoot a $1000 rifle with a $100 scope.

    but keep scale in mind. if you want to go to the local range and plink around 100 yards, you don't need big tech and $$$ for that. i have a blast with a $60 mosin-nagant with iron's!!! plus, i shoot til my arm hurts for $4!!

    if you want to shoot sniper courses, put little tiny holes on top of one another at 600 yards or are spending big money on an antelope hunt, i wouldn't skimp.

    spend time checking out reticles too. i can't stand a duplex. and find any sort of dot in the center to be highly annoying. there are 1000 variations.

  3. alagator

    alagator New Member

    More on reticles-- that big fat duplex will be easy to see at dawn or dusk when the whitetails are moving, and will work out to 300 yards, cause the target is a 6 inch or larger diameter vital zone. For that, 1/4 moa clicks are ok. That same setup really sucks for those tiny little groups you want for paper, or for long range work in broad daylight like that antelope hunt. You also want good glass for the dawn and dusk scope, for light transmission. So it really comes down to your intended purpose, but either way, don't skimp on your scope.
  4. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

    Just for the sake of getting some good recommendations from those "in the know", we're talking a .223 FS2000. Babj plans on keeping it mostly sub-200 yards, and we're looking for a battle optic. He wants something night vision compatable. The ACOG is high on the list right now, but magnification and particular model are up in the air.

    Any recommendations?
  5. tglahn17

    tglahn17 Member

  6. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

    after talking with syntax a little, i found out more specifics about your circumstance and desires.

    that acog is a nice piece. $$$$

    now i see why you were looking for more info on m.o.a.. from what i can gather the site works like this... the bottom of the chevron is 5.5 m.o.a. at 100 yards and 19 m.o.a. at 300 yards. this is basically a built in quick reference range finder. assuming that most men will be within a relatively close band of shoulder widths, you can use the chevron to determine range. this would take practice, but considering that the scope also has bullet drop compensation specifically for .223, you'd get pretty good pretty quick.

    5.5 m.o.a. is pretty close to 6". a nice handy measurement for comparison. as the chevron covers a greater width of the same sized target, the target is thusly farther away.

    that reticle is the snizz. were you to get a regular old scope, i'd suggest a german #1 reticle, which is very similar to the reticle #2 offered by scmidt & bender. the idea is that you have one verticle post that ends in a point. with such a site, you can shoot your scoped rifle as if it has irons, but without the concern of lining up the rear site.

    from what i gathered, you can't get the chevron reticle in anything less than 3x. that stinks!!! because if you plan on having a room to room sight, you want as little magnification as possible. if the suspected targets are 50 yards and in, you don't want anything bigger than 1.5X. if they're moving, especially if they're moving erratically, you won't hit them at all IF, IF you can even find them in the scope. if you do hit them, it will be luck. for 50 yards and in you want the shotgun!!! or the brightest red dot ever that basically becomes a glorified point shooting helper.

    but, keeping with our shtf battle rifle theme, low magnification is better in your circumstance. you'll still be able to hit a 16"x16" piece of paper at 300 yards, but it'll be tough with 1.5 magnification. with practice and a vise, you might be able to group a little bit at 300 with 1.5X, but it will take practice.

    so acog has you in this bind... 1.5x=good magnification level with an okay reticle.

    3x=PERHAPS a little too much magnification but the sweetest reticle.

    i know you're going for the tacticool thing as well, but for performance, you might consider a 1.5-7x variable power scope. keep it on 1.5. usually a target that is far enough away to require the higher power will sit still long enough for you to crank it up. and your groups are going to get small if you're shooting with 7X at 200 yards.

    as far as eye relief, i say the more the better. but i shoot bigger calibers and prefer to keep the scope out of my forehead. eye relief is how far away your eye CAN be and still see a sight picture through the scope. if the eye relief was zero, you'd have to get your eyeball into the scope. a .223 with a 2" eye relief? i don't know about that. i know they don't kick, but i think 3-4" might be better. you can always move it exactly where you want on the rail. as long as you don't move it into your forehead!!

    good luck. whatever you decide
  7. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

    Thank You BT!!! [and SYN]

    This is great info for a 'newbie' to long guns...

    Hopefully, I can learn enough from you all to keep from making some expensive mistakes....

    I am torn between reticals... I very much want the range finding function AND the .223 drop adjustment as well....

    I prefer something compatible with Night Vision, and able to work day and night with/without batteries.....

    And an adjustable magnification would be great... 1 or 2x-9 or 10xish....

    I know, I dont want much....

    and I absolutely appreciate the "quick one minute crash course" on how to use the damn thing as well.....

    ANYONE, please tell me what your favotite Optic is, What you primarily use it on/for, and WHY......

    Thanks again, Everyone!!!!
  8. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

    Right now, I like the Trijicon ACOG TA33R-8 3x (OAL 6.1")


    It features a red chevron similar to a Dragunov scope that allows you to calculate for bullet drop, no batteries needed thanks to the tritium. I'm not sure you'll like the 1.9" eye relief, though...

    I was thinking it would be awesome to see something like that ACOG behind a EOTech or something with a Samson quick flip mount just like Some_Finn did to his AUG (entire thread).

    some_finn's setup:

    I'm not 100% sure that mount with the ACOG would work just like his Aimpoint did, and BigTaco mentioned that the swivel mount may interfere with the ACOG's ability to hold a good zero.

    If it worked, the dual setup would allow close work with the EOTech and targets a little further out to be engaged with the ACOG. In fact, you might even want to step up to a greater magnification.

    Still, a setup similar to this might be worth researching further...

    Some_Finn would definitely be worth talking to, as he has extensive experience with some of these pricey optics and their various pros/cons. I would think the FS2000 and AUG "ideal" optic setup would be similar - I thought they used the same style rail up top, and they are both 5.56.

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

    Pretty much anything in Leupold for a balance between quality and cost.
  10. some_finn

    some_finn Guest

    Well, I'm kind of a Trijicon fan myself.
    I have a 3.5x (TA11) on my 16" AR and 2x compact on my 11" one, an Accupoint 1.25-4 on my G3 and a Reflex on my 9mm AR.

    If money is no issue, the Schmidt&Bender Short Dot should be fabulous. I have their 2.5-10x56 Zenith Flashdot on my HK SL8-5 and I swear the world looks clearer through it than with just my own eyes :D

    The Trijicon Accupoint can be seen as a cheaper alternative to that, but one has to take into account the huge eye relief. As I found out, it won't work well with the AUG for example.

    The Aimpoint/Eotech + Magnifier combo's big plus is the possibility of choosing between mag and no mag. But I feel the Samson flip mount is by far the best mount for the Mag, the other ones seem much more difficult to operate.
    Also the Aimpoint 3xMAG is not very good value, it's quite expensive for a simple magnifying lense, especially as the optic quality isn't anything too special.

    Another option in this mag/no mag category is the setup I currently have on my STG-58, an IOR 3x25CQB/IL with a Docter Sight on its side rail.
    I just have to tilt the rifle a tiny bit to "change" from the scope to the dot sight. (No, it wouldn't work better on top. Yes, I've tried. It's much slower to lift your head plus you lose cheek weld.)
    But it might be a bit heavy and bulky for an FS2000.


    I have some issues with astigmatism and because of that I have difficulty shooting really accurately with the "traditional" red dots like Aimpoint and the Eotech. With ACOGs there is no problem so I guess that's one reason I've gravitated towards them.

    Personally for an FS2000 I'd probably get a Compact ACOG, either 2x or 3x. It would be a good match for such a compact carbine.