Range report, New S9 and CCW G19

Discussion in 'M, C, L and S Series' started by Guest, May 3, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Went to my local range last weekend and ran about 200 rounds through both pistols. Before going I completely disassembled my S9 and shot some Gunscrubber in every orriface it displayed. I almost lost part #20, the trigger safety retention spring, while reassembling but I found it inside of an empty water glass halfway across the room (LUCKY LUCKY LUCKY).

    The S9 ran great, no failures of any kind. The only target I saved from the range day was with the S9 and 60 rounds, 30 at 7yrds and 30 at 15yrds. At 7 yards I'm hitting just left of bullseye and as you would imagine at 15 I'm shooting further left and a little low. I know that I jerking the trigger, I'm trying to work the habit out of my shooting. :(

    The G19 is still shooting low and left (my bad habit I'm working on) but not low and left enough to make me a bad shot during a CCW situation, when the GOD DAMN CCW finally gets here ( 89 days and counting)!! :evil:

    I'll post some pics very soon and embarass myself thoroughly.

    ~Oz
     
  2. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    so which had better groups?
    which was better feeling?
     

  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Glock had better groups (though I shot the Steyr better the first time than I shot my G19 the first time...this leads me to believe I will eventually become a better shot with the Steyr).

    The Steyr felt like it was making love to my hand, it was awesome. The G19 felt like I was holding a 2X4, as usual.

    Here are some pics (click for fullsize goodness):

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    Notice my horrible shooting! Everyone should fear me in the postal match, the aura of shitiness that surrounds my groupings will affect your abilities as well! Muaha..ha.

    *EDIT* For those unfamiliar with that target the black circle in the center is about 5.5 inches in diameter.*EDIT*

    ~Oz
     
  4. Alabama

    Alabama New Member

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    Looks like some lethal shootin' if you ask me...
    Great report 8)
     
  5. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    hey back red eyes :twisted:
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The flash on my girlfriends digicam is vicious.

    Did you know that red eyes in photos are actually the illumination of the retinas of your eyes? We can't see them normally because they don't have enough illumination to be seen through the vitrious jelly inside the eye.</too much pre-med biology>

    On a shooting note: I think I might just have to adjust my sights on my guns as I think my problem is that I am right handed and left eyed. I wear contacts/glass and the presciption on the left is -2 diopters and the one on the right is -3 diopters-astigmatic. My right eye is blurry even with glasses/contacts so I might just face up to shifting the slights to the left a bit.

    Comments or castigations?
     
  7. madecov

    madecov Active Member

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    had a friend who was cross eye dominant.
    He ended up canting the gun about 15 degrees while shooting (not quite gangsta style). It seemed to work.

    Cross eye dominance is not all that uncommon, and is probably the best reason to get some professional training.
     
  8. Alabama

    Alabama New Member

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    Oz, I can sympathize with being cross-eyed dominant (Damn my momma for slappin' me)...
    Have you shot from a rest to check the zero? If you're shooting from anything under 15 yards, the sights would have to be WAY off to hit four or five inches left, if I'm not mistaken.
    I'm in the same boat with my shots, low and to the left, and I'm positive I'm slapping the trigger and anticipating recoil on the first shot of the string, tightening my grip just before the shot breaks.
    Give the gun to someone else to check its accuracy, or shoot from a rest, or just disregard my comments entirely if you've tried all this already.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    All of those far left, low rounds are form me shooting the gun at 15 yards. Most of what is in the X, 10, and 9 ring is from 7yrds and that trend to the left is pretty typical for me.

    I am praticing dry firing whenever I can without scaring the hell out of my family. :roll:
     
  10. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    I just overheard a conversation at idpa match between a police academy firearms instructor and another shooter concerning cross eye dominance....

    basicly the instructor was saying how they are now starting to train those w/ crosseye dominance to shoot left handed even if they are normally right handed if the left is the dominant eye, and vice versa, apparently a lot of people in the instructor game are going to this as it has gotten some good results.

    i'd suggest doing some digging/ asking on T&T forums such as GT or THR.
     
  11. RangerM9

    RangerM9 New Member

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    me too

    Alabama....I'm in the same boat...low and left...I have to get out and practice more....

    got the gun, got the ammo....now i just need time to get to the range more!
     
  12. Alabama

    Alabama New Member

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    I've idly wondered about that, Chef, and considering I'm new to handguns there aren't a lot of good habits I'd be putting in jeopardy by learing ambidexterous form. If I EVER GET BACK OUT ON THE RANGE (sorry, li'l frustrated with my lack of shooting time lately) I'll give it a try and report back.

    Curiously, does it improve or hurt left-eye dominants to shoot with both eyes open?
     
  13. theFiasco

    theFiasco New Member

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    My experience is that it's OK to shoot with both eyes open...
    but I'm usually just happy to just be on the paper. :wink:


    It's only when you have the time to think about which eye
    is focused and on target that you start to switch between eyes.
     
  14. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    Re: me too

    I used to be, now I'm one or the other very rarely both, it's like if i try to work on one the other slips :x
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm not crosseye dominant - thankfully enough - but I am a fan of shooting with both eyes open. Picking which eye is the one you're paying attention to is fairly easy with just a bit of concentration (of course, I've never tried picking my non-dominant eye; I'd guess that to be much harder), and it allows you to maintain better peripheral vision. Which probably doesn't make a big difference on the range, but certainly could in a self-defense situation.

    I figure I just started shooting a few months ago, I might as well teach myself to do it the way I'd want to if the SHTF. Every now and again I'll have to close my left eye to re-establish my focus on the sight picture from my right eye, but that's getting less frequent the more I shoot.

    Now if only I could put the rounds where I was trying to aim the gun, I'd be good at this.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I am also cross-eye dominant, right-handed. I've done a bit of personal research on this myself. Every handgun I've ever owned (12 in all), I've shot slightly to the left, a little low maybe, but definitely more to the left, even at seven yards. With Glocks, I push the rear sight to the right to try to compensate.

    When I got my HK P7M13, I immediately loved it, especially compared to my G19 and G34, because the trigger is about 4 pounds, and although it has a much longer reset, it doesn't stack at all like the Glock, it is smooth and does not have much play. A couple of weeks ago, after 2 weeks of dry-fire practice, I was consistently shooting dead on for the first time, with 5-6" 50 round groups at 25 yards offhand. It was by far the best I've ever shot, and the people around me were pretty impressed as well, a good feeling for me. Two days later, I went and shot so more, with the same results, itty-bitty groups in targets and gaping bystanders. All was well.

    Then when I went out last week, I sucked huge, everything again to the left and groups twice as big as the week before. That week had been hectic at work, and I didn't get my usual reps of dry-fire. Frustrated, I kept at it that day trying to get back in the groove, even buying another 200 rounds for a total of 600 rounds shot. That didn't help, and what I find is there's only so long I can focus, and I was past that point of diminishing returns.

    But I know that I'll do well again, because I have the fix, if I can just execute, or course. To me, the issue is not necessarily a cross-correction or any kind of a visual problem, although being cross-dominant might complicate things (I personally find myself canting the gun, especially one handed), but rather something else.

    In my opinion, the main problem is grip and hand pressure, that of my fingers of the dominant hand tightening up as I pull the trigger, "mashing" the trigger, so to speak, basically, pulling the gun off-line during trigger pull.

    Pulling with less of the finger on the trigger, with just the pad, will help this. Using a wedge grip, in other words, with the support index finger far ahead on the bottom of the trigger guard (doesn't work well on the Steyr, but works for me on P7 and Glock) helps control the lateral deviation. Using the thumbs-forward grip, illustrated so well by IDPA Steyr in a great post in Glocktalk, helps. Lots of dry fire helps. Concentrating on smoothness before speed helps. Relaxing your shooting hand starting at the thumb (which is helped by the thumb forward grip) is key. Going to the range with a plan more than blowing off a few hundred rounds is imperative.

    Blindly mixing in snap caps with live ammo helps a TON. Try first mixing rounds in blindly in a box, then not looking while you load. If you haven't tried that already, it might be very revealing to find out how you're pulling the trigger when you know the gun is actually going to go off, as opposed to the nice, straight, smooth pull that you accomplish with boring regularity during dry fire when you know the gun is not going to go off. Personally, I was shocked to find out how much the gun was moving when I pulled the trigger on a snap cap. After doing that drill, I took it another step and alternated live rounds and snap caps through a few magazines. That helps program pulling the trigger the right way every time, one live, one not. One live, then one not. Concentrating on using the same pull, focusing on the front sight the whole time. A good thumbs-forward hand position can help control the degree of lateral movement, but the bottom line is that you have to pull the trigger straight back, with smooth, even, consistent pressure. Not 15 pounds of pressure to pull a 4 pound trigger, but 5-7 pounds of pressure. Again, relaxing your shooting hand is essential.

    Some of the top shooters in the world will slap as they pull, in other words, between shots their trigger finger will totally lose contact with the trigger. However, they have found a way (through practice) to pull in such a way that the finger comes with just enough pressure applied in a straight back fashion, not laterally throwing the gun off line. I find it interesting that some of the best pistol shooters in the world have learned to move their trigger fingers a great deal more than seems necessary on purpose. I think they do it to ensure even pressure, a straight-back pull, and is their way of intentionally not staging the trigger, which shooters love to do but may not be the best idea. Why? Because for many, when the shooter stages the trigger, IE, the finger stops movement until the desired sight picture is found, they then mash the trigger and anticipate the shot. Concentrating on bringing even, smooth pressure all the way back works better for me.

    Like so many things in life, it's much easier to think about doing things the right way then actually doing them. But of course, practice with purpose is the key.

    I've also found that guns like 1911's, P7's, and Steyrs are easier for me to shoot than Glocks and any conventional Double Action, which is why I'm selling my two Glocks and am getting an Steyr S9 and M9.

    With Glocks, for example, the pull is pretty light but it stacks at the end, making the ideal surprise break more difficult and therefore mash, flinch, etc., are definitely more of a factor. And with DA like Sig, HK USP, etc., the pull is so long and heavy that I find it's a detriment in general, I have to concentrate harder and my groupings aren't as good.

    Now, it can be argued that I should be able to learn a trigger given practice, but a friend brought up an excellent point at the range when I was agonizing about dropping thousands on a P7 (now I have 2, 3k worth of two guns!) after finding that I immediately shot better with it then my practical, economical, durable, easy to service Glocks. I was saying that I should just learn how to shoot the Glock as well instead of just buying a gun, etc, and he said, "you should never have to overcome the trigger on a gun." He's right. Why do we shoot some guns better than others? Have you ever picked up a gun and shot it better than guns that you shot tens of thousands of rounds with? It might be because you haven't shot the gun enough to know where in the trigger pull it's going to go off when you pull the trigger, and therefore you get the ideal surprise break. I personally believe that the quality of the trigger is as important as any other factor when picking a gun to shoot well.

    After shooting and becoming spoiled by my 2 P7's, I find that I just don't want to shoot my Glocks anymore. The only modern design I've tried that comes close is the Steyr, although the XD is nice as well. But the XD just doesn't fit my hand as well as the Steyr, and the trigger on the Steyr is shorter and very crisp. Every time I go the range with my buddy who I sold my M40A-1 to, I regret it, especially when I get to shoot it. I can't wait to get these guns, can you tell?

    Big long post, I hope that helps.