OK, why 357SIG?

Ballistically, the .357SIG is (as we all know) comparable to the "all time greatest man-stopper" in the history of handguns - the venerable .357mag. This appeals to a great many people, though bullet design is light-years different and, IMHO, contributes greatly the success of the .357mag. A lot of folks also point to the theoretical increased reliability of the bottleneck design. A lot of folks like it because you have to push a 9mm pretty hard to close the performance gap, but 9mm does offer more variety in available weights and 9mm has no trouble passing FBI requirements. The SIG brass is tougher - SAAMI putting SIG up to 40k psi, whereas 9mm and .40 only do 35k. If you hand load and want to push heavier bullets, SIG will do it faster than 9mm pound-for-pound.

But what really sells the SIG crowd (IMHO) is the energy. It is a fast moving round and the numbers look impressive. However, I just can't put it on a pedestal for this reason alone. Penetration is, of course, our primary concern when selecting defense ammo - as I said earlier, 9mm and .40 do not break a sweat meeting the 12-15" jello requirements. So how much then is that extra energy REALLY worth to you? All handgun loads are anemic and temporary wound cavity counts for virtually nothing in this arena of firearms. And recoil is a subjective thing, but few (if any) will argue that perceived recoil of the SIG is less than even the hottest 9mm offerings. So that SLIGHT energy advantage certainly isn't free - not only are you losing magazine capacity versus a 9mm in the same package, but the average shooter will also not be able to put those rounds on target as fast or as accurately as they could with 9mm. If you step up to the .40S&W, magazine capacity is unchanged versus SIG, but weight class increases (momentum is a good thing, period) and you are making a larger permanent wound cavity and thus the target will bleed out faster. How much faster? who knows... but at least there is a marked difference.

But then again, the increased velocity over standard 9mm and the smaller sectional density than .40S&W leave SIG as the champion of barrier penetration. This can be very important to LEO types, especially when auto glass may become a factor. In my opinion, this is THE reason why .357SIG is gaining serious popularity in the LEO market. SIG is reported to have a flatter trajectory compared to the 9 and 40, but for the average shooter and realistic defensible distances, this just plain isn't an important factor.

I just can't make the trade personally - SIG lacks the capacity of 9mm and size/weight of .40, so I just don't think I'm getting enough to make the trade. But it is a personal preference, and SIG will certainly get the job done just as readily as anything else on the market, so I wouldn't ever look down on someone who was willing to make the sacrifice. 8)

 

You forgot cost. If you arent reloading, cost to practice shooting will KILL you shooting 357 rounds. I can still buy 40SW rounds at 22 cents each, and I know the 9mm is cheaper.

 

Ballistics stats

Let's take a look at the ballistics tables in the Guns & Ammo 2006 Annual Gun Guide

Grains/Type/Mfg./FPS Muzzle/FPS 50 yds./Ft.lbs. Muzzle/Ft.lbs. 50yds./Drop 50 yds.
357 Sig:
125/JHP/Cor-Bon/1375/1203/525/402/.7"
147/JHP/Hornady/1225/1138/49/422/.5"
125/JHP/Gold Dot DoubleTap/1450/584 ft. lbs. (stats from DoubleTapammo.com)
147/JHP/Gold Dot DoubleTap/1250/510 ft. lbs.

9mm:
124/JHP +P/Black Hills/1250/1137/430/356/.8"
147/JHP/Several/900/941/320/289/1.1"
124/JHP Gold Dot DoubleTap/1301/473 ft. lbs.
147/JHP Gold Dot DoubleTap/1135/421 ft. lbs.

And let's throw in .40 S&W, too
150/JHP/Cor Bon/1200/1176/480/386/.8"
135/Nosler DoubleTap/1375fps/567 ft. lbs.
155/Gold Dot DoubleTap/1275/560 ft. lbs.

And why not 10mm, too?
150/JHP/Cor Bon/1325/1154/585/446/.7"
200/FP/Cor Bon/1200/1097/640/535/.8
155/JHP/Gold Dot DoubleTap/1475/750 ft. lbs.
135/Nosler JHP DoubleTap/1600/767 ft. lbs.
230/Hardcast DoubleTap/1120/641 ft. lbs.

And let's not leave .45 ACP out either
165/JHP +P/Cor Bon/1250/1121/573/461/.7"
200/JHP +P/Hornady/1055/982/494/428/1/0"
230/JHP +P/Black Hills/950/904/462/418/1.3"

I tried putting in tabs, but the web wizard took them out, so all those figures sorta make your eyes glaze over.

But bottom line on 9mm +P vs. 357 Sig is as much as 200 fps and 154 ft. lbs., using the DoubleTap figures, which is as close as +P as I know of for 357 Sig. So do you want a round that's maxed out and still falls short, as in 9mm +P, or 357 Sig which starts out well ahead and has also got room to grow into +P if any manufacturer ever sees the need to make it or if you roll your own?

When I was researching pistols for a carry weapon a bit smaller and lighter than my 10mm S&W 1076, I was looking for the closest ballistic fit that offers lots more capacity. I settled on 357 Sig and then on Steyr M357-A1.

When and if I add more calibers to my mix, it will be a 13-round .45 ACP that will handle +P and maybe an 18-round .38 Super/9x23mm. When it comes to velocity and ft. lbs., I want all I can get in every single round. And the more hot rounds you can stuff in a mag the better. If a little bit is good, a whole lot is more good.

Yes, I'm paying more for ammo, that's why I picked up a pair of 9mms, too. But I figure when the SHTF, as long as I got some rounds to shoot, I'd rather be throwing out hot 357 Sigs and 10mms, even if it does cost me a buck a shot or more. Can't spend my money when I'm pushing up daisies and I ain't taking it with me either. :mrgreen:

 

well, i'll just throw it out as the second compromise.

considering a bowling ball traveling at 100 mph as the ultimate man stopper, no one has made a weapon of this type that will allow you to carry 2 dozen of these on your person... in a pocket.

desert eagle not-with-standing, the .45 would be the closest thing.

but 9mm works good too and you get a lot more chances (more rounds) in the same package.

40 was the compromise. hits similarly to a .45 but allows more capacity in a smaller frame.

357sig is a similar compromise between 9 and 40. you get the same capacity as a 40. but can throw smaller bullets faster. as a round and a cartridge, the 357 enjoys more "inherent accuracy". this means that at longer ranges in the hands of average shooters, more rounds will be hits.

the downside is the cost. but hey!!! practice with 9mm. wwb in 9mm is very snappy, and adrenaline will kick in when you're flinging self-defense rounds out of the 357.

i'm not impressed with any gelatin results unless the tester puts some article of clothing over the gelatin. the perp's clothing frequently clogs the nose of the hollow point, preventing expansion. if the article of clothing is of more substance (as in a leather jacket), the resultant expansion/penetration will be significantly reduced.


target shooter have embraced the 260 remington for similarly objective reasons, but to them the 260 remington is the only way to fly.

different strokes for different folks. and i remember playing this all out on our chatroom in the defense of the .40 as syntax was defending the 9mm from wulf's 357 advances. the three of us are still sticking to our opinions and all with good reason.

i'll likely remain a .40 guy. i like 165 grains flying above 1150fps. but experiencing the 357 first hand opened my eyes as to why someone else would make that choice over the .40 or the 9mm.

if i ran the world, we'd be freed from the automotive tyranny that is the automatic transmission. stop being lazy!!! row your own gears and get twice the life out of the vehicle!!! with a little practice you can talk on the phone and change the radio station just in time to shift while eating a cheeseburger. and people think guns are dangerous!!! :roll:

but i think others would not share my affection for straight drives. oh well.

 

Re: Ballistics stats

This is precisely the kind of thing we're trying to dispel - 9mm certainly does not fall short in the performance department when we're talking modern defense loads and terminal ballistics - not even close. And as far as empirical science can determine, all those high .357SIG muzzle energy numbers are only a good indicator of how much harder the gun is going to jump when you pull the bang lever. Again, there simply *IS NOT* enough energy there - even with your beloved .357SIG - for the temporary cavity to matter. Self defense rounds are ranked by penetration, expansion, and energy in that order, and when we're talking pistols, the later is not going to win the day. If energy were the end-all be-all, we'd all be packing Glasier Safety Slugs or RBCD junk. Like I said before, I just can't trade capacity and shootability for a little more noise - I'd rather throw 2 or 3 rounds on target than try and pack as much bang into one round as possible. YMMV, of course. 8)

(it's been awhile - I was beginning to forgot the joys of a good caliber war :lol

 

I totally agree on the manual tranny idea! I am trying to teach my wife on my '88 honda 4speed :? I think that if EVERYONE
had to drive them it would also reduce traffic jams because people would just put it in 1st and put along instead of
slam the gas then the brake, gas, brake arrrggg I hate california traffic in a stick...

Ok back on point, I chose the .40 because .45 is to much for my little wife to shoot accurate and I can only afford one
handgun at this time so I didn't go with 9mm. I have always thought a .45 as a fraight train, Slow but anit' gonna stop
when it hits a car on the track. But then I started reading about energy transfer and some say that dumping all that energy
of .357 in such a short time is good too. Like a porshe at full speed t bonning a car, boom, it won't go as far as the train but
it will make a mess of the car... I am sorta new to the hows and whys of guns and ammo, I grew up shooting guns but never
put much thought into ballistics and stuff. I just went to the range and rented whatever they had that looked cool in .45 but
when it came to purchase for protection of myself and wife I actually had to give thought to it. I just couldn't buy the biggest thing
because some said it was good. I had to think of my wife and if she could shoot it also.
I am confident with .40 for my home but if I had to carry I think I would be ok with 9mm, but I would love to look more into .357
and see what my next cal I should save up to buy?
By the way this club is the best I like that while this is a heated debate we are all still civil to eachother try to find that on other places!!!

 

Just a side note - my little lady can rattle off my 1911 or USPc .45 all day long, but when I hand her a .40S&W she stops having fun and groups begin turning to patterning. A lot of people harp on the .45 as having more recoil than the .40S&W, but I believe the snappiness that is generated by higher pressures in the .40 leave a much more harsh recoil impulse that a LOT of people have difficulty adapting to. The .45, on the other hand, has a slow but firm push/roll impulse that isn't nearly as quick to rip the muzzle towards the sky. In other words, the recoil of both sure let you know it's there, but I think .45ACP presents it in a much prettier, tame way than the .40S&W. In a lot of ways, I think most .45's have LESS perceived recoil than most .40's - ESPECIALLY when one goes to the 135-165gr. options in the later. Everyone should be exposed to all the different calibers and be allowed to choose whatever works best for them.

I'm also going to move this one to Ammunition and Reloading, as the focus of this conversation seems to be the calibers, not the pistols. 8)

 

ah yes, jello wars....

Hi Syntax,

You make a lot of good points about caliber choices; most of which, like the perceived recoil of 45 vs 40, I agree with.

However, if 9mm did not fall short of someone's performance expectations we probably would not have the variety of ammo that we do have. I am not going to get into the historical reasons for the development of 9mm alternatives because I am pretty sure you know them better than i do - hence your qualifier "with modern defense loads".

Have not had the pleasure of directly comparing a 9mm steyr running +p with my m357 yet, but would like to.

I chose the 357 over the 9 because of its flatter trajectory, its bottlenecked cartridge, its greater potential, and perhaps because of its relative scarcity. (after all if something is harder to get or more rare it must be more valuable, right?) '' Anyway none of those advantages are likely to show up in jello.

Real world results are anecdotal, but that does not mean they are worthless - it just means they don't lend themselves to scientific validation.

 

I'm sorry, but that just might be the most bunk arguement against 9mm I've ever heard. Let us examine only the "common" offerings, as literally anything can (and probably has) been made. 115gr., 124gr., and 147gr. are the only common offerings in 9mm. Of course you can buy 127gr., 110gr, and a variety of other exotics, but those are the "big three". And then, of course, we can stick SAAMI specs on all of those - add a +P or +P+ if u like to most.

Now let's look at .40S&W - common offerings are 180gr., 165gr., 155gr., and 135gr. No SAAMI specs here, so adding the + tags isn't technically possible...

How about .45ACP? 165gr., 180gr., 200gr., 230gr. - all are quite common. And now we can again stick on the +P and +P+ stuff if we want.

Seems to me there is little (if any) difference. The reason why 9mm is widely available in different loads and pressures has virtually nothing to do with its performance - one could easily find a jello-slaying load in every common weight. 9mm has been around for a very long time and is *the* world standard for handgun ammunition. This, and this alone, is the reason why it's been tinkered with ad nauseum. It is an indicator of popularity and says nothing about performance.

 

See why I like this guy? I'm a 30-year straight-drive Toyota nut, currently with 278K+ on V. 3.0, love Steyr pistols and what does he do when I come to Pittsburgh? Takes me to lunch at Premanti's, a hole-in-the-wall joint down on "the strip" that serves to-die-for sandwiches stuffed with pastrami, french fries and cole slaw inside the bread!

Plus he throws in a tour of Pirates and Steelers fields in his Big Taco pick-em-up truck. Then we go shooting with a gaggle of guns and I get even more to love with my new SS guide-hot-rodded, trigger-slicked M357-A1. What's not to love?

Syntax, let me add a qualifying word on my rash statement about 9mm falling short. I shoulda added, when compared to 357 Sig ballistics, 9mm falls short by a couple of hundred fps and an even higher ft. lbs. number.

Heck, I like 9mm, too, though it took owning my first 9mm pistol to get over being a snob about them. For more years than I care to count, I thought .45 ACP was the be-all and end-all and 1911 was the king. Then I discovered 10mm. Then I discovered 357 Sig. Now I've got to the point I want at least one of everything? :mrgreen:

 

Thanks for the gel comparison, Dag. Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting. What I found particularly amazing was the almost identical wound track between 357 Sig and .45 ACP, despite the huge difference in grains and fps.

And I totally agree about the first three most important things about shooting, accuracy, accuracy, accuracy.

The two pistols I currently own that I can shoot the best, tightest groups with just coincidentally have the shortest, lightest triggers: My S&W 669 in single-action mode and my G29 with its 2.5-lb. customized trigger.

I do believe with Big Taco's fine trigger job on my M357-A1, plus the new guide rod, I will be shooting it better. He sure showed me it can be shot better than I do, with his work at 50 yards vs. my scattershot patterns. It ain't the gun so much as it is the shooter, most if not all the time. But a really good trigger most definitely helps.

Now all I gotta do is practice, practice, practice. The best ballistics in the world ain't worth a hoot if it misses. :mrgreen:

 

... if 9mm did not fall short of someone's performance expectations we probably would not have the variety of ammo that we do have. I am not going to get into the historical reasons for the development of 9mm alternatives because I am pretty sure you know them better than i do - hence your qualifier "with modern defense loads".

Hee, hee - ok I'll bite.

In order for an alternative product to exist for an appreciable period of time there has to be a demand for it.
Now demand is based on perceived need for a product and that need can be real or imagined (ie created by marketing).

I suppose it is possible that our perceived needs for something "better" than 9mm luger is part of a vast industry conspiracy to sell more guns and ammo to a gullible populace and not based on any real life situations where 9mm was, shall we say, less than adequate.

But I'd rather believe that .40, .357 calibers and 10mm are successful because there was a real need for a cartridge that outperformed a 9mm luger and that various police departments, federal agencies and military units requested the purchase of 9mm alternatives for good reasons.

Besides, even though I do like some 9mm & 10mm pistols, don't ya think there is just something down right un american about this whole metric thing?

 

Hi Guys

Love the thread. If anyone is interested, I like the 9MM because its accurate, has great capacity, has a smallish grip and has very little recoil, but I like my 9MM Mag better, ie My M357-A1. <shrug> And, I shoot and reload for all of the calibers discussed in this thread, tho I don't own a 10MM cause the grips have always proved to be outside o' my comfort zone. <shrug> What I'm finding most annoying in the continuing development of my 9MM Mag reloads is someone's poignant decision during the developmental stage of the 357 SIG cartridge to go with 9MM component bullets (0.355") when tryin' to emulate the performance of a 38 caliber firearm, 0.357". :roll: Because the concept of the the for the 357 SIG was to duplicate the ballistic performance of the 357 Mag performance-wise in a 4" barrel, shootin' a 125 gr bullet, it would have been more appropriate to have used the same component bullets, IMHO. :roll: Penetration, expansion and accuracy would have fallen nicely inline with the concept of a 10-15 round 357 Mag and with little more perceived recoil than a medium framed 9MM. What I'm really growing to appreciate is the diversity of component bullets available for this cartridge, especially if you have the option to resize bullets and add a diverse group of 38 caliber hunting bullets to the mix. From nearly 1700 fps 88 gr JHP's to over 1200 fps 158 gr JHP's, with a bit o' extra effort, in such a small framed autoloadin' firearm, nothin' does quite as well for me across-the-board. Feeding reliability hasn't really been an issue in my experiences reloading and shooting for my M357-A1 or for my S9-A1. I can't say that about any of my 45 ACP's. :roll: My $0.02 worth, FWIW. <shrug> Hava great week.

Wulf

 

I agree completely on the recoil argument about 45 and 40. I think it has a lot to do with trigger also. Both my fiancee and I can group a 1911 with a light trigger better. She would rather a full-size 1911 than a Steyr (because she likes to shoot it more). For a defense load at 10 feet away, I think shot placement will matter the most. I went with 40 because I heard and saw a lot where the 9mm just didnt stop, but Im sure the 40 could have the same shortcomings. I would feel just as good or better with 9mm SD loads as I do with my 40, because I get another 3 shots. I would probably never carry a 45, because 8 shots is just not in my comfort zone.
Oh yeah, and if it came down to "defending my castle", it would be .223 in 30 round mags, not 12 40SW rounds. hehehe.

Good ammo war, though in practice, its like most all of guns. Each can fill multiple roles well, but only one will truly stand out in the specific role needed. The problem is not knowing what role will you be faced with :? So of course you buy one of each, so you can fill all the roles with the best guns!!

 

You would think that, but my "castle" sits on 40 acres. So its the .308, then the .223. As for home intrusions, I have thought about getting a shotty for it (I have the bird guns), but Im confident enough with my pistol that it doesnt justify the cost.

Oh and as far as the shot placement thing, I just meant that at 10 feet it makes it that much more important, ie getting shot with either the 40, 45 or 9mm at 10 feet will more than likely have the same or a similar enough effect on a person when shot at the same impact point with similar bullets. Any volunteers to test this theory?? :lol: