Next Generation Steyr

Discussion in 'M, C, L and S Series' started by Angel, Mar 7, 2007.

  1. Angel

    Angel Guest

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    If Steyr wants to make some noise and rock the handgun world this is what they should do;

    Introduce an S1-A in 5.7 (as in FN FiveSeven) calibre. Imagine a concealable self defense gun that has almost no recoil, holds 15 rounds and can fire a bullet 2000 fps.

    I know I would buy one. :D
     
  2. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    sure it can fling a bullet at 2000fps ... but only like a 28gr bullet. 5.7mm is only really useful against soft armored targets with the SS109 AP rounds and those are verboten for us serfs.

    No thanks, I'll stick with my .40 thankyouverymuch. It may only launch those .40 projectiles at half the FPS, but the projectile weighs almost 6 times more. Thats more energy dumped into the target.


    Plus I'm not sure that FN is going to allow anyone to chamber a gun in 5.7mm for a while (and since they own the caliber anyone making a 5.7mm would have to license the caliber from them).


    I'd rather see Steyr focus on a .45acp and 10mm before messing with 5.7mm (although a 5.7mm TMP or AUG would be an interesting HRT type weapon).
     

  3. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    check the terminal ballistics on the caliber.
    9mm and 7.62x25 can send similar weighted bullet faster.

    tiny bullet 5.7mm in width shot placement will be crucial

    its great for penetrating armor but lousy in terminal damage.
    the ammo cost more than 45acp. I would rather have a Steyr in 22lr/17HMR and 45acp/10mm.

    look in 5.56x45 and 223 remington when the bullet doesnt shred or tumble but just zips through.
    depending on shot placement it doesnt perform so well. why the military is working on 6.8spc and 308win has had a bit of a surge.
     
  4. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    oh... we all have our dreams. thanks for sharing yours angel. i wouldn't mind seeing more guns in that caliber.

    by my understanding, that bullet is weak mathematically, (low grains, high velocity, but little "power") but in actual use is quite effective.

    there's very little chance of over penetration, and the bullet unwraps itself into a huge sharp paper cone. meaning that upon impact with a target, this bullet does damage more like an edge weapon than a bullet.


    so, it may not be the "knock down" cartridge. but a solid hit will induce massive bleeding.

    plus, you get more rounds to work with in a typical carry setup. plus, the no recoil effect will enable most shooters who practice a couple of times a month and never really overcome the flinch, to fire more accurately.

    we had the same types of debates when the army went from a .308 to a .223. the .223 has proven to be adequate.

    the report i've heard about the 5.7 is that it's an effective man stopper.
     
  5. Angel

    Angel Guest

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    Finally someone who knows something about this cartridge.

    BTW, the more guns are available in this calibre, the cheaper the ammo gets, and more likely for FN to sell more units. There is a 40 grain round available for it. The bullet is made to tumble or expand depending on which one is used. FN is no longer the only supplier of the bullets, either.

    If this round is so ineffective how come the Secret Service and several other spec ops groups are switching to it?

    Anyway, people will always be debating one calibre over the other but I think business wise it would make sense to have a S-1A in 5.7 .
     
  6. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    The reason to use the 5.7mm is if you expect to run across targets wearing body armor. I also suspect the move to 5.7mm is because of the P90, not the FiveseveN.


    As for "man stopper", more people are murdered with .22lr than any other caliber so I'm sure its good enough to kill people. The problem for use as a CCW or self defense piece is the same problem all AP type ammo has against unarmored humans ... they over-penetrate, doing little damage (just ask all those Rangers shooting at Somolians wearing nothing but t-shirts with green tip 5.56mm). If your goal is to STOP someone, you need to dump a lot of energy into them. The 5.7mm just doesn't do this. That said, I ain't standing in front of one :)

    At any rate, if Steyr brought out a 5.7mm pistol, I doubt it would be in the S ... would more likely be an M (as this would be designed as a duty type piece for those who also carry a Carbine in 5.7mm). And while I'm sure they would sell a handful of S-57s I think they'd make a lot more money investing that time and money into a .45 or 10mm.

    Or hell, even an S in 7.62x25 ... call it the S-Tok.

    On a side note, I think a little semi auto rifle in 5.7mm (maybe based on the 10/22?) would make a great prairie dog gettin' gun.
     
  7. fryeg7

    fryeg7 Guest

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    like others have mentioned, the only purpose of the 5.7mm pistol is to defeat soft body armor that normally stops standard pistol and subgun rounds.

    if i5.7 floats your boat and tickles your fancy, fantastic, get a 5.7 pistol and shoot the hell out of it. i bet it's an very accurate round that's fun to shoot. but it's a very specifically designed round that isn't the most effective stopper for CCW or home defense. really, how much damage is a 5.7mm bullet at very low weights going to do to a human after it's already lost energy defeating the armor? i certainly wouldn't want to be shot with one, but it's not as impressive as it seems at first.

    also consider that this round was developed to be fired out of a select-fire bull-pup style rifle with a 50rnd mag and not a semi-automatic pistol with a 20rnd mag. the engineers were counting on many of these rounds hitting the target to acheive a stop, not one or two.

    f you really must be able to defeat body armor, any full-size rifle round will do. or learn to make headshots with a pistol :wink: .

    frye
     
  8. srfl

    srfl Guest

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    I would give an appendage to get an M10A1 or S10A1.
     
  9. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I would express my disdain for the 5.7x29mm, but the other members have done a really good job already. I would actually lose some respect for Steyr if they introduced a 5.7 handgun - it's a bad choice, plain and simple, for anyone not battle armor-clad soldiers/zombies.

    A M45-A1 and/or M10-A1 would DEFINITELY find a home in my safe. Personally, I'm not real interested in the S platform - the M's are the perfect size for carry IMHO. Should Steyr set out to lighten my bank account, the .45 and 10mm are the way to do it. 8)
     
  10. Wulf

    Wulf Premium Member

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    I don't understand, follow or really give a fu*k what the big stink is about the 5.7X28 cartridge. Personally, I'd love to have an SMG chambered for this round. Talk about a ray gun! :p But, provided my opponent is porcelin clad from head to toe and I gotta 1K round magazine, IMHO, a 357 SIG makes more sense close quarters. But, that's just me....

    Wulf
     
  11. aubie515

    aubie515 Premium Member

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    If 5.7 ammo wasn't so expensive, perhaps more people would be buying weapons in this caliber.
     
  12. BulletBait

    BulletBait New Member

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    Sorry Angle and Aubie515, but the FN's 5.7 is going the way of the .41AE

    Once the BATf-men banned the original Hi-Velocity rounds and only let the weaker ammo in that is only
    slightly hotter than 22 Hornet at, what? Three times the cost? The 5.7 was doomed. Which is how the BATF likes it.

    A M/S45A1 is where it's at if Steyr wants to sell all the pistols they can make.
    A S45A1 is my dream CCW :wink:
     
  13. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    The thought of an S10A1 makes my pants tight. :shock:

    And owning (and carrying) both an M40 and an S40 I can say with all certainty that the S is better suited to CCW by quite a bit (not that the M is a bad CCW pistol).

    Still, considering how .40 is pushing the upper limits of what the S frame can handle (assuming the SA1 frame isn't stronger) a 10mm S is not likely.

    But boy, what a dream :)
     
  14. ThaiBoxer

    ThaiBoxer Active Member

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    What kind of ballistics does the 5.7mm get from a pistol barrel? I thought that the round was made for carbine-length barrels in SMGs, & I'd be worried that the round wouldn't zip enough from a pistol barrel.

    Is the S series small enough to fit in a pocket?

    I think that the M series is ideal for an IWB fighting pistol, reluctant to give anything up in mag cap or handle length. I'd be interested in a pocket Steyr, but it would have to be really compact to push out my Kahr PM40.

    Just curious,

    Ben
     
  15. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    5.7x28 is .224"
    22 caliber

    cartridge itself is not real big. comparable to 17HMR and 22WMR though 5.7x28 is slightly bigger.

    S series is easier to put in a pocket but your single stack Kahr will be easier.
    S series can use M series magazines.

    someone while back made a 10mm knecked down to 223 sold conversion kits to Leo/Mil to convert 10mm guns.
    great for a .2XX ice pick like penetrator. excellent for varmint and some hunting. not very ideal for concealed carry defense use.
     
  16. fryeg7

    fryeg7 Guest

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    although i'm no fan of the 45acp, this is where steyr needs to go to make it big in this country. 45acp is king of pistol cartridges in the eyes of a very large number of american eyes. look at the springfield XD45. it has taken off and become a huge success simply by offering a chambering in the cartridge most americans want. people who would never have bought an XD before now have them simply because of the 45acp.

    if steyr came out with a 45 and marketed it effectively, it could be big . . . .

    i'm not so sure about the commercial success of the 10mm chambered pistols. it's a hell of a cartridge, but has very little interest commercially. i've now started reloading, so 10mm is a much more feasible option for the future for me. i couldn't afford to shoot 10mm enough to become proficient with that pistol unless i was rolling my own.

    frye
     
  17. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    inexpensive 22lr pistol of similar make is also good idea.
    lots of people just own 22lr guns. conversion barrel to 17hmr is good idea.
    very popular specially when priced competitively.
     
  18. Kinetic Energy is what causes someone who is hit by a bullet to die or become injured.

    KE = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2 (Velocity is HUGE as you can see and FN recognized this).

    This equation reveals that the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed. That means that for a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four; for a threefold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of nine; and for a fourfold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of sixteen. The kinetic energy is dependent upon the square of the speed. As it is often said, an equation is not merely a recipe for algebraic problem-solving, but also a guide to thinking about the relationship between quantities.


    The 5.7x28mm is designed to replaces the 9mm FMJ round fired from semi-automatic pistols used by NATO forces. It has both superior penetration over the 9mm FMJ round and superior terminal ballistics over the 9mm FMJ round.

    I would love to see more firearms in this caliber.

    Watch this video and you'll see for yourself the performance of the 5.7x28mm.

    It was not designed to replace the .45 ACP, the .223 Remington, and does not deserve to be compared to those rounds it has a place.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyJEEISVTd4
     
  19. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    Absolutely not. Vitals being hit are the sole "cause" of immediately incapacitation. If a round cannot penetrate deep enough to hit the vitals, it can not physically cause immediate incapacitation - short of a head shot, you are absolutely counting on the target to fall down because they were predisposed to doing so. Bleeding out is the 2nd cause of incapacitation - 20% of the target's blood must be lost. This takes time - an eternity if they are shooting back while the process is "in the works". Blood loss will also be the ultimate cause of death in the majority of the cases.

    You're right and this would all be good if energy from a handgun cartridge ever killed someone. However, it does not. Energy (or speed) hurts, penetration kills.


    It was designed to replace the 9mm, and it unequivocally failed at this task. Your facts are so far off base on this one it's not even funny. On a good day, the 5.7x28mm gets less-than or equal to 10" of penetration in ballistic gel. 9mm FMJ does 17"+. Considering the FBI minimum requirement (as determined to be the required amount of penetration required to reliably penetrate the vitals) is 12", the 5.7x28mm isn't even capable of meeting the minimum requirements for being able to physically cause reliable incapacitation.

    And you are definitely part of the lonesome few on that one.

    Ya - an FN promo video is a real reliable source of factual data for an FN product. Might as well just reference FiveseveNforum.com - you can get some real unbiased and factual info over there, too. :roll:

    The 5.7x28mm is a gimmick whiz-bang round. FN tried and failed to create a round that would perform equal to the 9mm. The only time the 5.7x28mm would be a worthwhile round is if the target is armor clad and you have the LEO-only SS190 - and even then, I have very real doubts as to how much energy will be left in that ultra-light projectile once it punches the kevlar. If it does 10" with no obstacles, how much can we expect after it hits kevlar? Out of the FiveseveN handgun, the cartidge performs worse. Most law-enforcement agencies that gave the 5.7 a fair run have since ditched the effort in favor of 5.56 sholder mounted weapons. The P90 only fills a niche market where a ultra-compact PDW is required with a high rate of fire and very low recoil.

    Most of the LEO market and virtually all of the civilian market have already given up on the 5.7 - and rightfully so. Personally, I'm just wondering how much longer until FN does the same...
     
  20. mugdava

    mugdava Premium Member

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    Hey All!

    I'm w/ Zundfolge, Syntax360, BulletBait, and anyone else that said .45acp! If Steyr wants a large chunk of the American firearms sales, I believe .45acp would be a huge step in the right direction. A little marketing savy wouldn't hurt either!(hint, hint!). :roll:

    When ever someone says to Me, "what does the Steyr compare to that I might know already". My answer is "The M&P". I also tell them, that IMO The Steyr is better in almost every aspect. Guess who's coming out w/ a .45acp later this Month, that's right none other than M&P. :shock: S&W seen all the pistols Springfield was seeling in .45acp w/ The XD line, so They're getting on the band-wagon. I'm sure Springfield is delighted. 8) And like HK really needed a new .45acp, but guess what? They're gettin' one too and It's real pretty and should get a huge chunk of American cash!

    While a 10mm Steyr would be cool(I'd buy one!), .45acp would sell circles around a 10mm(or 5.7 for that matter).
    Where is My M45-A1?
    _______
    mugdava