Metro bus incident: Member's opinion's please

Discussion in 'Anything Else' started by mustang1495, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. mustang1495

    mustang1495 New Member

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    I would like member's opinions of the following two news articles, one dated 08-22-2011 and one dated 08-24-2011:

    The Seattle Times 08-22-2011

    "A judge Monday ruled there was probable cause to hold a suspect for investigation of first-degree assault in the stabbing of a 30-year-old Seattle man as he was leaving a bus Sunday in downtown. The victim, a Seattle man originally misidentified as a tourist, was taken to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle with nonlife-threatening injuries. The man, who was stabbed in the stomach and head, was released Monday, according to probable-cause documents filed in court Monday.

    "The suspect, Alphonse Hope, 38, of Seattle, was described by King County prosecutors as homeless. He was being held in the King County Jail on $250,000 bail. Prosecutors have until Wednesday to decide whether to file a formal charge.

    "Hope was on a northbound Metro bus at about 3 p.m. Sunday when he became increasingly belligerent with different passengers, according to court documents.

    "At one point he threw an empty beer bottle at a passenger leaving the bus, hitting him in the head with the bottle, the documents said. The man left and did not contact police.

    "The stabbing victim was riding on the same bus along with six of his family members, according to the court documents.

    "While attempting to move to the front of the bus to inform his family of their upcoming stop, he asked Hope, who was blocking his path, to let him pass.

    "Police said Hope initiated an argument with the man and pushed and kicked him to the floor as the man tried to walk away.

    "Seattle police said the man tried to ignore the assault until a woman with Hope began hitting several of the man's family members.

    "It was then that the man decided to defend himself and his family and got into a fistfight with Hope in the aisle of the bus, police said.

    "When the bus came to a stop, the brawling men spilled onto the sidewalk just north of the intersection of Third Avenue and Pine Street, according to police. During the ensuing fight, Hope stabbed the man, police said. Multiple witnesses called 911.

    "Hope fled the scene and was stopped by police at Fourth Avenue and Olive Way. Police said that officers found a bloody, 3 ½ — inch folding knife in Hope's left front pocket.

    "According to the court documents, Hope said he lost a fight and was "jumped" by five people.

    "The woman who struck the victims' family remains at large, police said.

    "Hope was taken n Sunday to Harborview Medical Center by medics for treatment of cuts to his hand then booked into jail for investigation of assault.

    "Hope has a history of criminal activity in 12 states but no warrants in King County, according to King County prosecutors.
    I would like member's opinion on this news article dated 08-24-11:

    The Seattle Times 08-24-2011

    "Charges in fight that began on bus"

    "A 38-year-old homeless man accused of stabbing another man during a fight that began aboard a Metro bus on Sunday has been charged with second-degree assault. Alphonse Hope, of Seattle, was also charged Wednesday with fourth-degree assault for allegedly attacking the victim's mother.

    "Hope is being held in the King County Jail in lieu of $250,000 bail. He will be arraigned Sept. 7 at the King County Courthouse.

    "According to charging documents, Hope was on a Metro bus at about 3 p.m. Sunday when he became increasingly belligerent with different passengers. At one point he threw an empty beer bottle at a passenger leaving the bus, hitting him in the head, the documents said. The man did not contact police.

    "The stabbing victim was riding on the same bus along with six of his family members, according to charging documents. While attempting to move to the front of the bus to inform his family of their upcoming stop, he asked Hope, who was blocking his path, to let him pass.

    "Police said Hope initiated an argument with the man and pushed and kicked him to the floor as the man tried to walk away. Seattle police said the man tried to ignore the assault until a woman with Hope began hitting several of the man's family members, charging papers allege.

    "It was then that the man decided to defend himself and his family and got into a fistfight with Hope in the aisle of the bus, police said. When the victim's mother tried to intervene, she was struck by Hope, according to charging papers.

    "When the bus came to a stop, the brawling men spilled onto the sidewalk just north of the intersection of Third Avenue and Pine Street, according to police. During the ensuing fight, Hope stabbed the 30-year-old man, police said.

    "The victim was taken to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle with non-life-threatening injuries. He was released on Monday".

    I am a long time reader of various forums on the internet with respect to gun issues. . . . . . I have now just typed, and then just now erased an entire paragraph. I wanted to give more information about what I have read on the internet relating to self defense and concealed carry, and everything in between, and what I think about this news article, . . . but . . . I will skip all that, and I will just get down to brass tacks:

    Were I the man, would I be justified in shooting Mr. Hope?

    Or let me put it another way:

    Were you the man, would you be justified in shooting Mr. Hope?
     
  2. JMJOHN0055

    JMJOHN0055 New Member

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    It depends on how the law reads in a particular state. I'm in Ky. where all I have to do is show that I was in fear for my life, or the lives of those around me. So, yes, I would have been justified in shooting him. Especially once I had been stabbed. I can't quote the law for every state, but I know where I'm at, in the heart of the bluegrass, I would have been perfectly within my rights to take lethal action against the man. Now the question is, "Would I have shot Mr. Hope?" That's a whole other bag of worms. I doubt I would have, at least until I had seen the knife; but that's me. I wouldn't have let the man push and kick me to floor either though. So it's very hard to say how I would react until I'm in the situation. I like to think I could keep that I could avoid this particular scenario, and I do; I don't use public transportation, but if I were to find myself in a similar situation it might get ugly. It's a very hard question to answer, but definitely one worth pondering.
     

  3. Narsil

    Narsil Premium Member

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    I'm no lawyer but I've researched our laws fairly well. In the state of Florida, there is no onus to flee from a life-threatening situation before resorting to self-defense, but you must be able to demonstrate that you were in fear of your life or the life of another. Prior to the knife being pulled, lethal self-defense would most likely end up being decided by a jury. You're not allowed to shoot someone simply because they threw some punches at you or grappled with you. A man in the state of Florida was convicted of wrongfully killing his neighbor when, during the course of an argument, the neighbor began beating him with a section of garden hose. The man pulled his concealed firearm and shot his neighbor. The jury believed that being beaten with a section of garden hose did not constitute a life-threatening situation and convicted him. Personally, I think each member of the jury should have been struck about the face and torso five times with a two-foot section of standard garden hose before deliberating but that's me. If the man on the metro had started throwing punches at a child or an elderly person, shooting them would probably result in a trial but you might get away with it. As soon as the knife came out, however, I believe it would be a pretty cut and dry case of self-defense if the man had been shot.
     
  4. Steyr Spartan

    Steyr Spartan New Member

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    Since each state is different, the laws of CC will vary. As Narsil said, Florida is pretty clear about when it is acceptable to use a Concealed Weapon. If you are IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE--or the lives of those around you--then you are likely justified in using whatever means you have to defend yourself.

    I don't know any statistics on deaths, but I can almost guarantee that 0 American were killed by a Garden Hose in the last 10 years. Meaning this example is not sufficient enough to warrant killing another man. However, a man armed with a knife is a pretty clear cut case of a life threatening scenario--blood can be drawn by this weapon. Therefore, all things being the same, had you been on that bus you probably would have been OK with shooting your attacker. But I'm not a lawyer so who the hell knows..
     
  5. ETH77

    ETH77 Premium Member

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    I suspect I might have pulled and shot him in the leg. The idea is to make him stop his behavior. Sometimes pepperspray is a good backup. Maybe even a good ol' taser - taser him again bro'!
     
  6. JMJOHN0055

    JMJOHN0055 New Member

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    ETH, where are you at, if you don't mind my asking. In KY, if I were to pull my gun and shoot someone in the leg, I can be sued or even tried in court because of it. Again, I'm going to pretend to know how it is everywhere, but that would get someone in a lot of trouble where I'm at. Pepper Spray, Taser, Baton, or even Brass Knuckles (which I carry) would all be easier to explain to the police (or potentially a jury) as a means of self defense. Just my 2 cents.
     
  7. ETH77

    ETH77 Premium Member

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    Just saying - I know you get in trouble. Sometimes you act - and the defense is, I was trying to get him to stop, and he blocked my path to flee.
     
  8. darksidemxer

    darksidemxer New Member

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    makes sense but my crim professors *officers/ ex officers and lawyers* all say if u draw ur weapon u shoot to kill never shoot to intentionally mame or wound because if u have the presence to do so u obviously were not in fear for your life.....do i agree...ehh not really but can a good lawyer convinve a jury that u were not in fear cuz of ur actions, u bet ur ass they can.
     
  9. xthexheadx

    xthexheadx New Member

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    what's your point? even if you shot him in the head, even if he had a gun as well.....you could still face civil and criminal charges and have to go to court over it.... and your brass knuckle/baton suggestion above isnt an easier explanation to a jury eitrher. both are defined in our state as a deadly weapon, one fist thrown while wearing knucks is considered "using deadly force", and carries the same charges as firing a gun at someone. even if you miss the punch, you CAN BE TRIED FOR ATTEMPED MURDER. ( in our state)

    the pepper spray and taser argument i agree with. neither one are "deadly weapons" as defined by our state, these "less lethal" options for self defense may be easier to explain in court. but i dont see why you would have to, this situation is clearly covered in KRS chapter 503 as being appropriate to use deadly force...not that i would ever want to take another life, but lets be honest, dead men tell no tales, and they certainly dont testify....
     
  10. JMJOHN0055

    JMJOHN0055 New Member

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    I agree, knuckles/batons are classified as "deadly weapons", and I know the ramifications for using them. I also know that using them could land me in court, and I'm okay with that or I wouldn't carry them. x, you and I have talked about this, and you know that I'm not going to give up easily if I ever find myself in this situation. I just like to have options.
     
  11. ETH77

    ETH77 Premium Member

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    This thread has actually prompted me to inventory my possible options along with the SD weapon. I'm shopping a tazer and pepper spray. This discussion makes it clear that non-deadly force weapons are every bit as necessary as the SD pistol. I hope there is training in their use on the level of the training for pistol usage. At one time there was.
     
  12. mustang1495

    mustang1495 New Member

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    Well, I just want to say that this thread and all the replies that have been posted to it have started quite a discussion at my workplace. All I did was mention that I had read these two articles in the newspaper. I mentioned that I belong to an online discussion forum (that concerns a certain firearm that I own). I mentioned that I had asked for opinions about the article. The comments and questions from my co-workers have been really eye-popping!
     
  13. JMJOHN0055

    JMJOHN0055 New Member

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    What kind of comments and questions have they shared?
     
  14. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    Hope is going to experience a change
     
  15. mustang1495

    mustang1495 New Member

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    Oh, just the usual, "standing around the watercooler (or coffee maker) at work conversation", only this time, the subject matter is gun related. Specifically, hand gun related. And in particular, having to do with a specific incident. I just made it better. I upped the ante, once I posted the above mentioned Seattle Times news articles. And, told my co-workers that I had then asked for comments from fellow website members. Once I did that, it slightly changed the discussion. Now it became more acceptable and attractive for co-workers who would otherwise stay silent on more controversial societal issues, to now speak up and share their views.

    Typical comments include:

    [BTW, although it doesn't look it, these comments comprise those of at least eight different voices, (4 people in my little department alone). Each comment should be read slowly, with emotional responses similar to someone who really, really thinks and believes what they're saying]

    "It was just a fight on a bus. Why entertain the use of a handgun to resolve it?

    "I would have no trouble putting the man down.

    "Why couldn't the argument have been figured out without it having to get violent. Violent to the point they had to take it off the bus?

    "Everything changed when the knife came out.

    "You are too quick to resort to the use of force. Have a problem, out comes the gun.

    "If I was the man, I would have no problem defending myself, and my family. If, in my judgment, that meant using force, even deadly force, so be it.

    "You'd return us all to the ol' west.

    "It is my right. The Constitution even provides for it.

    "Oh, here we go. The Second Amendment argument. Knew that was coming.

    "Whatever. I have the right to defend myself.

    "The Second Amendment clearly has to do with the military. Anybody can see that by just reading it.

    "I can read too. It says what it says. It says, ". . . keep and bear arms."

    "That was written over 200 years ago. We've evolved.

    "A man comes at me with a knife. I have the right to take whatever means I need to to stop him from harming me. It is as simple as that.

    "That, "violence meets every situation" mentality is exactly what is wrong in this country.

    "Hmmm. That's interesting. Coming from someone who watches pro and college football every chance they get. Seems to me I've been reading a lot about injuries, particularly serious injuries, some leading to disabilities, in your sport.

    "Oh, now I see. You're comparing shooting a gun with sports.

    "No, I'm not. But since you bring it up, you realize it is indeed a sport.

    "I know that hunting is a sport. The next thing you'll tell me is that you need a big long clip for your, "sport".

    "It's called a, "magazine", and as matter of fact, I do. It's called competition shooting. There are organizations that put it on, just like other sports. It's done at a range.

    "Fine. I like that idea. You can have your 15 or 20 round ammunition magazine. You can keep it at a locker at the range. When you need it you can get it. And it stays at the range. Guns are just far too accessible to people, and their use to solve each and every problem is way too easy. And the use of these ridiculously large magazines needs to be limited."

    And so on and so on and so on the conversations went on.
     
  16. khoff

    khoff New Member

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    i have no problem walking OR EVEN RUNNING from a confrontation. "he who fights and runs away LIVES to fight another day". its the confrontations i refuse to flee from that concern me the most. remember, it is very difficult for a grand jury to true bill an indictment when there is no body, victim, perp, or otherwise.
     
  17. CZ4Me

    CZ4Me New Member

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    I'm in KY as well, and would've been justified in shooting him and always carry something (usually my little Kel-Tec PF9, love the little bugger)...but in that case, if I had witnessed him throw a bottle at somebody I would've taken him to the ground from behind right then and called the cops. It never would've progressed that far. Cowardly to jump on him before he knows what's going on? A lot of tough guys think so, a lot of tough guys get shot and stabbed needlessly too. Winning is winning. Ending an confrontation quickly and without getting hurt is all that matters. With 6 family members and a drunk homeless man hitting people with bottles and I'm sure, children on the bus, it would've been time to put him face down on the ground and call the cops.