MA1 w/ manual safety?

Discussion in 'M, C, L and S Series' started by dwillia29, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. dwillia29

    dwillia29 New Member

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    I just now saw all the killer pics of the "unnamed s.e. asia spec ops unit" MA1's that have a revamped manual safety (as well as threaded barrels... drool...).

    If I wanted to procure an MA1 w/ a manual safety (and I do), who should I contact about it? SAI in Georgia? Or Steyr in Austria? If no one knows, I'll try both and post back w/ results.

    I recognize that there will likely be a LONG wait and voluminous amounts of paperwork to fill out absolving Steyr of any responsibility if I negligently shoot myself or someone else b/c of the, um, safety. :roll:

    However, I'm willing to suffer as I really like the manual safety, and was sad to see it go.

    I'm also used to toughing it out, because here in Maryland, I was the one (yes me, take a bow :wink: ) who got the S9 on the "approved list" of handguns in `02. It took me the better part of a year, and lots of cash, but in the end I was victorious. The S40 though, is STILL not on the list, and probably never will be. I'm not willing to go through all of that again -- somebody else's turn.

    I may be the only person alive who spent over $1000 on an S9. Dumb move financially, but it was the priniciple of the thing... I don't regret it one bit.

    So I'm more than willing to persevere to get an MA1 w/ a safety. Any advice/info appreciated! Thanks!
     
  2. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    talk with jack. may not be possible at all but he would know.
     

  3. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    I very much like the manual safety on my M9, and would love to get some MA1's with manual safeties.....

    ...How in the world can these extra safeties be a source of litigation for Steyr?

    I want my manual safety!!!!!
     
  4. nc_gunner

    nc_gunner Guest

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    I'd love to see the manual safeties as an option in the M-A1s, as well as an option with the new S-A1s that are supposed to be arriving in the next 60 days or so. The lack of a manual safety is my only reason for not being comfortable carrying my M40-A1 as a CCW. Gotta have one in the pipe, so I need that one last assurance.
     
  5. dwillia29

    dwillia29 New Member

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    Re: the MA1 manual safety, Jeff isn't sure, and suggested I email Steyr Austria, which I plan to do now. Will post back...
     
  6. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    IF steyr had the parts, it would be relatively easy to retrofit manual safeties to a1 models.

    the possibility does exist in the future. if the future includes lots of steyr parts.

    i know that this turns into a debate but...

    the safety only keeps the trigger from traveling rearward. the exact function that a quality holster provides.

    i carry one in the pipe, safety deactivated in a ctac and have so for years. in a conversation distance gun fight, where i'm drawing and shooting from retention to save my life, while some other person is doing whatever they're doing to me, the last thing i want to worry about is deactivating a safety.

    my .02
     
  7. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    I'm with BT, personally, but I think a manual safety option would draw a few people to the club. And it never hurts to have options - I hope Steyr makes it available, especially on the newer S models.
     
  8. dwillia29

    dwillia29 New Member

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    Still no word from Steyr Austria regarding the (un)availability of the manual safety MA1's...

    My email inquiry was short, polite, and written at ~ a 3rd grade reading level. This was an attempt to ensure that recipient would comprehend it, even if their English was quite poor. But if their English in non-existent I guess I'm outta luck...

    Emailed to: [email protected] (the only addy I could locate) and I requested that it kindly be forwarded to the appropriate department and/or individual if needed.

    If anyone is aware of a "better" (?) email addy for Steyr, please let me know. Still keeping my fingers crossed tho...

    OT -- After some consideration and practice drawing & dryfiring (with and w/o the safety engaged), a 180 has occurred in my thinking. I agree with both of the above posters -- in a real world, violent encounter in which you have little to no forewarning, a safety is just going to slow down your reaction time at best, or get you killed at worst. IMHO.

    This is an epiphany for me. Just speaking for myself, I think the reason I was so fond of the manual safety was twofold: 1) It was novel, and seemed (and still does seem) more user-friendly & instinctive than a side mounted safety or DA/SA handgun, and 2) the Steyrs pre-cocked striker (73%?), made for a great trigger pull, but also made me a tad nervous. Irrationally so, in retrospect. I would NEVER put my finger inside the trigger guard unless I was going to pull. So why should I care? I haven't carried Mexican style for, jeez, a couple weeks now. :wink:

    If I'm ever jumped, mugged, asked for spare change, etc. -- if I even have a chance to get to my handgun -- it's going to be Pull, Point, Bang.

    Any more complex will be just too much for my feeble mind to process. Maybe I'm retarded.

    Regardless, just as I'm reasonably certain that I'll never eat a sliced tomato and whipped cream sandwich, I'm pretty sure that under the enormous strees of a rapidly unfolding violent encounter, I wouldn't remember/have time to disengage the safety. Of course, it's impossible to say with any certainty, but I'm more liable to snap the trigger in half in a desperate attempt to pull, than to disengage the safety and then pull.

    So, one might ask, why am I STILL so intent on obtaining a MA1 that has a safety? I dunno... They look cool? And they'd be uber-rare. That's reason enough for me.
     
  9. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    hhmmmmmmm..........

    What amount of 'extra' time is 'actually' required to simply raise your finger slightly [disengaging the manual safety] WHILE pulling back on the trigger?
    And only on the first shot....

    IMHO :D I cant realistically see myself in a situation where this fraction of a fraction of a second will make or break me....

    ...IF ever it does, kindly share this post with those who may doubt the negative effects of a manual safety in the future!!! [Ill be in a better place....]

    Seriously, a constant awareness of your surroundings at all times and always being mentally prepared 'should' prevent any catastrophic scenario where you must have that 'extra' fraction of a fraction of a second.... And, if you do, some 'hand to hand' may be required first.....

    I would love to discuss scenarios where full situational awareness could not prevent this situation?

    Anyone?....... Anyone?.....

    :D
     
  10. dwillia29

    dwillia29 New Member

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    I'm more than happy to engage in a friendly debate. But keep in mind that, as a very recent convert (as in the past 24 hours :) ), my argument(s) may be a bit lacking in focus...

    Good question. I'd say "next to none". You'd need an Olympic commitee-calibrated stopwatch and slo-mo photography to notice any difference in an individual adept at disengaging the safety and firing.

    But that's not really my point. Admittedly, I've never been in a "life or death" situation, but I imagine (just speculating here), that I'd experience some or all of a human beings reactions to unexpected, immediate danger. For instance, a sudden surge of adrenaline and resultant lack of fine motor skills, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and uh... A little help here?

    Anyway, my point being, that even if one can disengage the safety and fire that first shot in a single, smooth motion at the range, they might
    not be so adept in a real like encounter -- especially in one involving hand-to-hand.

    Or maybe not? I don't know. But can one REALLY be sure?

    And, even more to the point, if one has trained well enough to develop that instinctive muscle memory, what is the benefit of a manual safety anyway?

    The only benefit that comes to mind (and the one mentioned often) is if the handgun is forcibly taken from you. It's not a Glock... Chances are, you'll have some time. I'll grant that.

    As for situational awareness, I'm with you 100%.

    Don't the Marines have a saying, (loosely paraphrased): "Be polite, be courteous, but have a plan to kill every one you meet."?

    While maintaining a degree of situational awareness (perhaps not as extreme as the above) is paramount, and may very well cause a potential attacker(s) to think twice, sometimes even the most attuned can be taken by surprise. Especially if you're a female with a couple of kids in tow, or an elderly grandmother with a bagful of groceries...

    I'm relatively young, bigger than average, and physical pain doesn't frighten me. Now, I'm not Chuck Zito (or even Steven Seagal :roll: ), but compared to the population at large, I'm probably a "hard" target. As, I would guess, most on this forum are. (Apologies in advance to any tough-as-nails, 90 year old Steyr owners).

    Now I'm getting off topic. Well, I'm gonna keep going with that... :wink:

    I just wrote that I hadn't ever (knowingly) been in a life or death situation. Allow me to amend that statement somewhat: I've ridden motorcycles for 15 years. Taken advanced rider classes. Logged close to 100k miles on the road and, of course, had my share of close calls. In short, I'd judge myself to be a pretty good rider.

    Occasionally, we trailor our bikes down to Virgina International Raceway in Danville for a track day. It's a blast -- you can really test your limits.

    Last summer, on the last lap of the day, I just went balls out... A corner that I usually leaned my Triumph into at ~60 mph, I leaned into at ~85mph. A signifcant difference.

    Before I high-sided, there was about a single second where I KNEW that I was in over my head. And I just froze. Like a deer in the headlights. I shouldn't have; I COULD have made it if I'd simply rolled on the throttle, leaned a bit further, and looked at where I "wanted" to go instead of where I "was" going.

    Stay with me here... The analogy isn't ideal, but it's the closest that I can personally relate, and I think it's fairly apt. I.e., danger out of nowhere (and yes, technically I know that I put myself in that situation, but still...), my heart rate skyrockets, my stomach sinks, I know what I need to do, but I just can't pull it off. It's all happening so fast... I can't even begin to process.

    And in THIS scenario the danger of death or crippling bodily injury was present -- but remote (just a broken arm and wrist in this case).

    Now, imagine yourself (or yourself as a young mother, or elderly grandfather) in a situation where death or grevious bodily harm IS approaching THAT rapidly. And for whatever reason, you've been taken by surprise.

    Are you certain that you would have the wherewithal to disengage that safety?

    I'm not sure that I would. And that's why I'm going without.
     
  11. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    Absolutely fantastic counter-point, dwillia29! Great job - I agree whole-heartedly.
     
  12. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    beautiful rebutal. it took me a long time (and a totally anihilated, blown to smithereens, every fluid that started in the bike was all over highway 7 in WV... zx-7rr, yes... RR :cry: ) to learn to apply the throttle when you get into trouble. nowadays, spinning the rear puts a smile on my face. though there's usually a faster way through the corner, so i don't consider it a "good" thing. vir's a great track too!!

    but back on topic...

    consider this, as this has been proven time and time again in simulated scenarios.

    if a guy with a knife wanting to stab you is 21 feet away, and you have a holstered weapon. YOU'RE GETTING STABBED. period. proven fact.

    if a fraction of a second cost 1 billion dollars in that situation, it would be a bargain at twice the price and you'd pay it in a heartbeat.

    and this guy is starting the attack from 21 feet. if you have a dude right in your face... holding the knife behind his back... you're screwed.

    the safety isn't buying you thing when the gun is holstered in a quality holster. some of those el cheapo neoprene or whatever holsters do not adequately protect the trigger. get some good leather or some good kydex.
     
  13. polik6887

    polik6887 Guest

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    yeh, but if you have a safety you have an option to not keep it engaged. you can choose to be safer, or you can choose to be faster. on a glock or like gun you dont have a choice. I guess it could accidentally be engaged, but the steyr safety seems pretty well sheilded from that, at least more sheilded than a thumb safety.
     
  14. dwillia29

    dwillia29 New Member

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    Syntax & BT - Thanks for the kind words. I'm just glad a few people were able to navigate their way to the end of my rambling essay!

    Yes, I've heard of the 21 foot rule and have no reason to doubt it. And you note that if you're attacked within conversational distances, you're screwed.

    I'd think that only the most cretinously dumb attacker would telegraph his intent to move against you at 21 feet. Rather they'd wallop you in the head with a pipe while you're on the elevator. Or stab you while you're reaching into your pockets for spare change...

    If I were a betting man, I'd wager that almost all attacks from strangers involve some level of subterfuge or surprise. No?

    Not sure that means you're definitely screwed tho. You might be no matter what... But if you can fight with knife, impact weapon, bic pen, hands, knees, elbows, etc., maybe you have chance. Who knows?

    There are so many variables involved, so many "what ifs?", that the subject could be hashed over, discussed, and debated until we're all rolling around in wheelchairs w/ oxygen tanks.

    I'd advocate whatever makes you feel most comfortable. If that means having a plan to kill everyone you meet, I say go for it Rocky.

    Personally, I'm cool w/ a small knife or a Surefire crenelated flashlight. It's illegal for anyone but Democratic politicians and the police to carry in Maryland (this is not a joke), so I never carry a firearm. OK? I - never - carry - a - concealed - steyr.

    I just happen to collect kydex, IWB holsters. That's all.

    Oh, and I suppose Republican politicians might also be allowed to carry. But since they're about as rare as unicorns in MD, I can't really say for sure.

    OT -- BT, do you still have your ZX7 or is it mechanical roadkill?

    And this is REALLY OT (and it won't happen again, promise), but check out this responsible motorcyclist w/ his girlfriend. In the interest of keeping Steyr Forum PG-13, I opted to exclude pic #4. Man, if I was this girls father...

    http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e37/d ... 1200/1.jpg

    http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e37/d ... 1200/2.jpg

    http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e37/d ... 1200/3.jpg
     
  15. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    it ripped the bottom of the front fork tubes right out of the legs, sent the entire front wheel assembly 100 ft. UP a mountain slope. the rear wheel exploded.

    we counted good parts. well, they counted good parts, i was strapped on a back board for 2 hours. which sucked because i couldn't put my dislocated shoulder back in, the straps were too tight. had to wait for head exam.

    BT's version of a head exam... "is it on?" "yeah" "good, we'll just pop this shoulder in and throw the ankle in a cast, we can still get to seneca rocks and back by dark!!!

    about the parts, it's still a debate. some say 13, some say 11... good parts. does the ignition count? you name it, it was busted. the triple tree was jacked, the gas CAP was crushed, the battery was blown up!!.

    i have the biggest piece of plastic from the crash. it's sits in a small box on my dresser.

    my buddy, who is a track coach with team promotions and has been riding for 38 years said, "that's the worst crash i've ever seen, where the guy lived."

    as far as i know that bike is still at cycle recyclers in the pittsburgh area, if you want to check it out.

    and those two in the previous pics... oh well.
     
  16. dwillia29

    dwillia29 New Member

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    BT - What in gods name was "it"?

    From your description, I'm thinking a Hellfire missile? A high-speed, front end collision w/ a Humvee? A shortcut thru a minefield?

    You're not paralyzed from the neck down and typing w/ a pen between your teeth are you?

    I've never heard of an accident like that where the person survived either... You've got some cojones to get back on a bike again, imo.

    ps - i'm going to pm you shortly re: the captured, s.s. guide rods. hope some are left. very nice work.
     
  17. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    i managed to put the front wheel between two guard rail posts, then the bike rotated around the stuck front wheel and pinned me against the rail just long enough for that force to unstick the wheel, bending the fork legs enough release the lower legs and launch the wheel up the hill.

    the worst part was that i had a broken ankle AND a dislocated shoulder. i couldn't even use crutches!! the few times i left the house those first few weeks, somone had to carry me to the truck, basically carry me where ever we were going and carry me home. i have some pretty good friends!!!

    as far as getting back on the bike. i kinda think i should have died that day. but i didn't.

    every day since has been a gift.

    a gift i enjoy to the fullest by ensuring that everyone whom i love is fully aware of that love. how many times has someone died without hearing how you really feel about them? who would you tell that you love on your deathbed? tell them now, today might be the day.

    a gift i enjoy by pursuing the things that i love. one of my loves is motorcycle riding. one is lifted toyota trucks ("big taco" for those that never figured it out). my first love was drumming. still have to feed it on a daily basis. i probably wouldn't have a love for handgun shooting, except that steyr insisted on making such a nice firearm.


    the other thing to realize is that we all have addictions. for some it's caffeine. for some it's sugar. for some it's nicotine. for others it's illegal drugs.

    my addiction is riding a sportbike. it's one of only two things i'll wake up before the sun to do. and if the deer and turkeys would move after sun up, i'd just as soon wait til noon to go find them. i try to do it as safely as possible, and for the most part stay within the law. i wear full leathers, even if we're going to a restaraunt, always wear a full face helmet. since the big crash i've managed to keep both wheels on the ground... most of the time :wink: .

    sometimes my right hand gets the better of me, but officer friendly and i have a nice chat, after which i get a "CERTIFICATE OF ACHIEVEMENT" with a price at the bottom.

    i keep all my nuttyness in sparsely populated areas with negigible traffic which doesn't preclude an accident, but it does minimize the potential damage toll... relative to attempting to wheelie a sportbike into an open elevator at the mall. which i still maintain could be done. it just might hurt a little!!

    i think that jumping the pickup truck is actually way more dangerous. but i have to do it because northwest offroad is counting on me to cover their rent with all the springs i buy :roll:
     
  18. MythBuster

    MythBuster Guest

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    I own two Steyr pistols and I have experience with many more. People get confused with the action on the sear and they assume the Steyr is not fully cocked. The sear does move to the rear and down as the trigger is pulled. Because of the angle on the sear and striker tab the striker is not pulled to the rear.

    Basically the Styeyr is 100% fully cocked when a round in innthe chamber.

    You can see this for yourself by placing a thin object against the rear of the striker and dry firing the pistol.
     
  19. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    i'm not going to argue with you,

    i'm going to tell you with 100% assurance that the sear in the steyr DOES absolutely move to the rear. this was covered in great detail in the "how it works" tutorial that was previously posted on this site. this may soon be available in the future.

    but as a basic point of reference. at rest, the sear is sitting on top of the post or catch as some call it. during trigger pull, the trigger bar pushes the sear (still sitting on the catch) rearwards. at some point the post makes contact with pin #14. this pin stops the catch from moving rearward any farther. further rearward trigger pull moves only the sear rearward. at a certain point, it falls off of the post and allows the now fully cocked striker to move forward and detonate the primer.

    the triangular shape of the sear and firing pin tang are there specifically to allow the firing pin tang to move over the sear once the sear has fallen off the post. it is undeniable fact that these two parts (the sear and the firing pin) move together. the firing pin spring is exerting a forward force, pushing the firing pin tang against the sear. these parts remain in contact until the sear falls off the post, which can only happen when the sear has been pushed rearward. if the two parts mated at right angles instead of their angular contact, all rearward movement would be the same. the difference occurs when the firing pin tang tries to pass over the fallen sear. if these two parts contacted at right angles, the sear would have to drop MUCH farther down to allow the firing pin tang to pass.

    having demonstrably demonstrarted three facts 1) the sear moves rearward. 2) the sear and firing pin move together 3) the angular interface has no effect on rearward travel

    the singular conclusion that can be drawn is that the firing pin moves rearward prior to firing. this is the definition of double action.

    if you have any more questions or doubts feel free to air them, but i think you'll be hard pressed to argue with the physics involved here.

    please take time to really think about what i'm saying. i have studied this mechanism in great detail, having held the individual parts in my hand and having built jigs which replicated a single motion at a time.

    i know that you're disposition is to believe that the steyr is fully cocked, but this is 100% false.
     
  20. MythBuster

    MythBuster Guest

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    I am aware the sear moves down and to the rear. The striker is not pulled any to the rear. You can clearly see this for yourself by cocking the pistol and placing a thin object between the slide and frame up against the striker and pulling the trigger.

    Do this simple test and then get back to me.

    If the striker is pulled to the rear by the act of pulling the trigger it is not enough that you can see or feel.