M S C slight hangup in to battery stuff

Discussion in 'M, C, L and S Series' started by Talyn, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    I'll get some video up on this as well. I'll have to get the lighting setup just right with the camera to pick up the black.

    So, what we've talked about in a few threads here is when you rack the gun to make it live, set the striker/trigger, there is a slight wobble you can have front and back.

    The firearm is still capable of operating, but the trigger pull is horrible.

    So, I pulled the trigger group out of the fire arm and assembled the barrel onto it. the only thing that moves when this happens is the slide, spring and locking lever.

    The space is the dead zone when the barrel locks into the slide and there is about a 1/16th of an inch to go before the locking lever hits the barrel lugs.
    None of the striker assembly actually moves during this.

    The part that intrigues me about this is that the firearm does not do it when its not cocked.

    Now, if I take the back plate off and leave the firing pin in, cock the weapon, the fire arm does not have this little waggle, but then the striker is not cocked either.

    So, I load the striker by prying it back and wedging something in there, and still no issue.
    Weird.
    So, apparently it has to do with the striker and firing pin interaction.

    I'm guessing the spring on the firing pin has enough umph while the main spring is stretched out all the way that it is enough to kinda put the firearm in limbo for where it locks up.

    I'd think that possible a Longer main spring would allow it to keep the same overall spring recoil, but apply enough pressure while locking to overcome the firing pin spring.

    I've always noticed that this pistol starts easy and gets harder to pull back later.

    Now, as for the M series Pistol, I'm not 100% sure that would be the case being a different barrel lenght, so report in if thats the case.


    This really seems kinda trivial and silly in the long run and and I'd assume it would eventually eliminate itself.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    I have a strong feeling this issue has to do with the Roller for the firing pin.

    Thats what I feel.
     

  3. jhb

    jhb Member

    513
    23
    18
    makes sense. nice job doing an autopsy to figure it out, thanks for sharing with us all.

    question does your c9 go out of battery like Mr. Stein's does from a slight push? mine does not that i can tell, unless i put a bit of pressure on it. more than normal holstering it, would cause. maybe i'm not following the "slight push"? maybe what i consider slight and Mr. Stein considers slight is far apart......or all relative type of thing. appreciate your feedback. thank you Sir.
     
  4. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    The amount of pressure required to push it back is around 10-12 lbs from my guess, its more than the trigger pull.

    If you grab the slide you pull it back 1/4 to 3/8's an inch with ease before the spring actually starts working.

    The spring from what I can tell is setup just right for this firearm, but the pressure it puts out at full extent is just not enough.

    Holstering the firerarm throwing it out of battery? I don't think so unless you have a really tight fitting holster.
    But if thats the case, when you draw, it will be back in battery.

    I just tried putting extra pressure on the slide though the back of the leather while holstering mine and it will not go out of battery.
    So, if you have an improperly made kydex holster, I can see it actually moving it back that 1/16th of an inch were talking about, but it will go right back when you pull it out.

    I'll spend some time making a video about it this afternoon.

    Visual aids always make for best discussions.
     
  5. jhb

    jhb Member

    513
    23
    18
    good info, thank you Sir.



    right on. look forward to the video. appreciate the feedback/follow up.
     
  6. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    I shot 18 mins of video. I'ma have to edit it down some. Eeep!!!
     
  7. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    It's a long video. 16 mins

    [video=youtube;YKNkvos9s8c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKNkvos9s8c[/video]

    Come with me as I loose one of my springs and install my trigger in backwards on video. hahaha.

    Overall what I can tell you is there is nothing Wrong going on. This doesn't effect firearm reliability.
    The harder trigger pull is from the trigger safety catching. The trigger cannot actually get harder with the striker system.
    Period.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  8. tuicatuica

    tuicatuica New Member

    108
    1
    0
    Thanks! Very informative presentation. Cheers.
     
  9. Frank N. Stein

    Frank N. Stein New Member

    25
    0
    0
    That is an excellent video, thank you. After watching it I have two comments:

    1. I have a Remora holster which is purposely tight and it goes "out of battery" every time I insert it into the holster, but doesn't always put it back into battery after I remove it. Is there really any way around that or should I just get a new holster?

    2. My trigger pull is still extremely heavy once it's "out of battery", we're talking 12 pounds at least. Your video clearly shows that it's the trigger safety being caught on the body. Where should I lube to prevent that from happening (or could you even slightly sand the body down so that it doesn't catch as much)?
     
  10. jhb

    jhb Member

    513
    23
    18
    Great video. Well done shows it perfectly.

    Mine is like yours, the trigger pull is not to bad. I also haven't noticed mine coming out of battery when carried in my hybrid holster.

    And you are rght Sir. Doing that on video around a tripod is not fun. If I were doing the video you'd see allot of cursing and frustration. So thank you for doing the work for us. Its appreciated.
     
  11. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    Oh very very good point. I did not think of Remora's at all. Such an excellent holster.

    As silly as this sounds, (though I don't know your hand size) Throw your thumb on the slide when you holster.

    I carry cross draw, so I generally holster left handed with the slide in my palm anyways. With the way I position my holster, it tucks the grip under my ribs, so you don't actually draw with a thumb on the grip. It's quite slow, but I got too much crap on the right side. I figure gun is last line of defense, so the every day use stuff goes on the right.

    I hate stupid design flaws like this. It's really a spring issue. Though a stronger recoil spring in these would give them more muzzle flip, but the violence involved in the ejection of these and the timing issues I've seen with the c9-a1 series or some of the other a1 series pistols leads me to believe that a stronger recoil spring could improve this issue we are all upset about.

    I need to call Jeff at SAI about getting a replacement spring for the one I lost in the video. I don't think I used the right spring when I put it back together. I'll be sure to ask him if there is some stuff we can try to narrow down the issue.

    I have heard mention there is a weaker firing pin spring available, I could see if he'll send me that to test this theory.
     
  12. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    When I pulled the trigger group I put a dab of fluid film on the trigger safety. I had somehow got some dirt in my safety so it was being really gritty, so I lubed the whole thing up and worked the grit out. After that I noticed it wasn't breaking so hard on the trigger. I think it also had to do with the fact I could more easily pull the safety all the way into the trigger while pulling it.

    I pull with the tip of my finger as well when I pull the trigger, I don't think as many people do that. It helps keep from getting the left and down or left and up jerk when you pull for me.
     
  13. Cat91

    Cat91 New Member

    10
    1
    0
    My S-40A1 does that too, it is what I was complaining about in the "range report" thread. But when mine is slightly out of battery, that is when I get the light primer strike and it doesn't fire. I agree-this is a recoil spring issue and these things need a stouter recoil spring.

    Oh, by the way: Talyn, thank you for the video. I watched the whole thing. I'd never have the nerve to detail strip a gun like that. But it is interesting to see that my S-40A1's issues are apparently for the most part familiar ones. Now, if it'll just loosen up and stop that FTRB stuff, we'll be good to go. I racked my A-Zoom snap caps through it about 50 times tonight, and it only screwed up a couple times after I cleaned it up so I have hope.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
  14. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    Your welcome. The tear down is simple enough on these.

    Of course you screw up only on camera. hehe.

    It's a really silly quirk with the gun being in a state of limbo like that.
    Though why yours would make light strikes in that situation stumps me. It should make no difference unless its because the extractor isn't seated on the shell.
     
  15. Cat91

    Cat91 New Member

    10
    1
    0
    Part of it may be the ammo I'm shooting. The UMCs and the Federals I'm shooting aren't the best quality ammo. I got the Federals in bulk from Georgia Arms, it's their "Canned Heat" stuff and it's about four years old. The UMCs are of equal vintage. I think that when it is not all the way in battery the striker isn't getting a clean stroke, maybe. Most of you all don't notice because you all are shooting higher quality ammunition and it goes off with a lighter strike where mine hangs up. I ran the ones where I got the light strike back through the gun and they all went "bang" but one of the UMCs. I think that one had a bad primer.

    Like I said in the other thread, I talked hubby out of giving up on it just yet. If all the people with the S-9A1s and C-9A1s weren't having early teething problems I'd be more worried. But it is looking like this is par for the course for a new M, S. or C-A1 and it is supposed to get better after a couple hundred rounds.
     
  16. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    Guys here have reported the Steyr's are capable of striking rifle primers effectively.

    I'd pull the firing pin and clean the channel out.
    Very light oil on the pin.

    Check the spring retention clip as well inside to see if its got a bur on it. it could be hanging up inside. Thats why we have the derlin cup mod to make for smooth actuation.

    http://btguiderods.com/category/steyr-acc/

    Big Taco is an approved vendor here as well.

    For 12 dollars it's a hard thing to beat.

    Yes, the firearm should function without them, but when you look at it, you'll see why people suggest to replace it. only 2 things on these pistols bother me fit and finish wise.
    The Ejector, and the spring retainer for the firing pin.

    I personally don't think mine is capable of a light primer strike in all honesty. It snaps forward hard.

    I really have NO idea whatsoever how brass shavings can get inside here.

    I've read where people have ran guns like glocks for thousands of rounds without cleaning them, and I can see it happening, but as you've already noticed, these guns are manufactured tight.
    Glocks are not. Their firing pin design is different as well with polymer stuff in there yada yada.

    It's hard to compare the 2 in all realities, your looking at a fine tolerance product vs a low tolerance product, but they both cost the same price.
    Guys on here been shooting their Steyr's for years and bet their lives on them.
     
  17. Cat91

    Cat91 New Member

    10
    1
    0
    Holy crap! That sort of detail stripping scares the heck out of me. I've got a black thumb for that kind of thing. But I'll take a look at it.
     
  18. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    Naw, not that hard, use a ziplock and a small screw driver.
    put the bag over your hand so you don't loose the spring. just pull it down and slide the back plate out, then the firing pin slides out.

    I shot mine across the room the other day making that video. I was amused.
    Then for the video I lost another spring. I think I have the wrong one in there now. =\

    I need to call Jeff to get the right one.

    I hate making mistakes. =\
     
  19. Talyn

    Talyn New Member

    632
    4
    0
    I really don't want anyone to look at these threads and go "you guys over there don't admit anything could be wrong." cause thats not the case. Every firearm design has its quirks.
    These ones here are like a child, gotta whip em a few times before they learn. haha.

    I admit I got frustrated with FTE's on mine.
    I've fussed with it a lot and played with it just racking the slide and doing dry fire drills.
    The fire arm has changed dramatically since I first purchased it earlier this year and I've learned a lot.
     
  20. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

    5,073
    13
    0
    There certainly is some flaw in design with these pistols. It seems to me like they are finicky out of the box - lay that on tolerances or whatever. It seems like many of them start behaving after being broken in - and then consistent failure rates sorta level out to what we might otherwise expect.

    I have two - the first gave me trouble for about a thousand rounds, while the second ran flawless from day one. Both guns are rock-solid these days. Tons of my friends have bought Steyrs and it's about the same story - about half of them have needed extractor upgrades and a little love to get them right.

    I think Cat91's problems are going to be twofold - finicky break-in due to design constraints, and that it is a compact .40S&W. My personal observation has been that snappy, small guns tend to be magnets for trouble. She sounds like an experienced and competent shooter, so that probably isn't the issue here.