Less than lethal?

Discussion in 'Anything Else' started by HIBACHI, Jan 21, 2007.

  1. HIBACHI

    HIBACHI Guest

    16
    0
    0
    Does anyone know what the legal issues are behind using lethal force (M9) on an assailant armed with pepper spray, stun gun, or a taser? Have had many coversations with co-workers, but this would seem to be a real grey area. Let's assume you're not in your residence at the time.
     
  2. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

    3,816
    31
    48
    If you have a gun and he is trying to taser etc. you, then he is going for your gun in my opinion.
     

  3. flyandscuba

    flyandscuba Guest

    95
    0
    0
    Not sure what you'd face in Hillary-land. But in the free state of Florida it would go something like this...

    Me:
    "Officer, I was in fear of bodily harm or death -- I fired to stop the threat"

    Officer:
    "Thank you Sir [closes notepad] -- I'm glad you had the ability to protect yourself, have a nice evening....the Corner's team will be here shortly to remove this..."

    The reality is -- either you are in fear of bodily harm/death, or not -- only a split second to react. If you are in true fear, no need to match the lethality of a chosen assailant's weapon. He could have a pencil in his hand -- if he's in my house (or not in FL) and I'm in fear, I'm using what means I have available to defend myself. 9.5 times out of 10, that will be a handgun.
     
  4. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

    2,652
    2
    0
    Tueller Drill: How close to defend with deadly force?

    I posted this a while back about the Tueller drill, which is a specific police training scenario about how and when to respond to an attacker NOT armed with a gun.

    https://steyrclub.com/modules.php?name=F ... highlight=

    Bottom line, as said already, if you are in fear of your life, from a club, knife, sewer pipe or any deadly weapon, you have ever right to respond with deadly force.

    Just remember the magic words to say to the first officer on the scene: "I was in fear for my life." Repeat as often as necessary.

    Should work even in Hillary-Land.
     
  5. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

    1,085
    5
    38
    less than lethal weapons have been lethal though on handfull out of majority that have it used on.
     
  6. flyandscuba

    flyandscuba Guest

    95
    0
    0
    That's why they are properly referred to as "Less Lethal" weapons rather than "Less Than Lethal" or "Non-Lethal"... When employed in the force continuum, weapons not intended to kill do, at times, result in fatality. That latter terms are considered improper and obsolete by most law enforcement agencies, military organizations, and insurance carriers providing law enforcement liability coverage.
     
  7. HIBACHI

    HIBACHI Guest

    16
    0
    0
    As always, thanks for the feed back. After posting I did a little more research of New York (am not familiar with this "Hillary-land" some folks keep mentioning) penal law. Seems if an assailant is engaging in the act of robbery, I am empowered to use lethal force to terminate such activity or to effect the arrest of such an assailant. The use or threatened use of deadly force is not required to fit the definition of a robbery, plain old physical force or threat thereof will do. While I wouldn't want to push it, here in New York (one of the original 13 and still the best state in the Union) I could shoot an unarmed individual if their motivation was to rob me and force was necessary to stop the attempt . In theory I could meekly hand over my wallet and drop them as they ran away. Was a little surprised to see that in print. I consider my question answered. Thanks all, and I'm sure whatever state you live in is a very nice place to be. :wink:
     
  8. flyandscuba

    flyandscuba Guest

    95
    0
    0
    Glad the hear that information. I'm sure it is very nice there....stay warm :wink: -- it's a balmy 60 degrees here. :D
     
  9. squirrelpotpie

    squirrelpotpie Premium Member

    338
    0
    16
    Hi Hibachi,

    I assume you heard of Bernie Goetz? He was acquitted of attempted murder after defending himself with a gun on the subway but spent time in jail on an unlicensed weapon charge.

    New York seems to be the home of a lot of folks who do not support the 2nd amendment to the constitution and does not sound like a very friendly state for gun owners.

    Hope things go well for you there and you never have to use your gun in self defense.
     
  10. The following relpy is based off of "common law," which is a simple statement of the majority view of states that is based on years of development of the law. However, EVERY state has codified self-defense into statutes that can be found through a search of your state legislature's website. These self-defense statutes will give you the exact elements required to assert self-defense in your state and should be something you store in memory if you CCW. In short, this post is general educational advice and not legal advice.

    If you are attacked in most states you have a duty to retreat. In other words if you can get away you should or if the attacker runs from you than you can not pursue.

    If you can not retreat you have the right to self-defense if you believe you're faced with risk of death or great bodily harm. Self-defense is an affirmative defense to murder in the United States in the majority of states.

    Non-lethal items would cause you to be unable to defend yourself and place you at the mercy of a person who has shown a clear intent to cause you harm. Based on the above a reasonable person (objective standard) would probably in the short period of time that an incident takes place had formed the belief that they were at risk of death or great bodily harm allowing for self-defense. However, this ultimate determination would be left to a jury of your peers or a judge if by bench trial.

    However, the above is in regards to criminal charges and not civil suits.

    I hope that at some point every state has legislation like Florida that allows for protection of those who are found by a county prosecutor or in a criminal court to have asserted self-defense properly from civil suit. Florida also has the very nice castle doctrine extended to all areas outside the home where the CCW holder would have no duty to retreat.