Iraqi insurgents using Austrian Rifle

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by MrApathy, Feb 13, 2007.

  1. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...FF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml

    I wont blame the manufacture or the product but the owner/purchaser of the product. Iranian Government,Defense forces and Iraqi insurgents.
    should the deal have taken place not my call. just as lots of gun dealers in the US sell legal products and most follow the law but for whatever reason purchaser either lied or went crazy.
    Iran said the guns were to be used against drug smugglers in the east half on the Afganistan and Pakistan border.
    In other words Iran lied and Steyr bought it.
    while the sale is unpopular and negative fallout assured.
    Steyr Mannlicher with the sale was a good thing. It shows Iran is active in Iraq insurgency this cannot be more clearer should the news article and evidence holds up. gun doesnt need to be smoking just there.

    sure it would be preferential that all guns are owned and not used for other than paper puncher.

    to ban a manufacture or a product because the users abuse it is no different than support the politicians and supporters of anti gun groups that want to ban all guns. Soldiers generally have a fighting chance it is war. wonder if this was unraveling for a while and why the previous owner sold the company lets keep in mind the current owner is not responsable for making the sale he just walked into a shitstorm. tommarow ban steyr and the day after that ban everything else capable of a people using to defend from tyranny one day at a time till the absolutism is complete and then fascism.

    dont blame the rifle but the man behind it

    puts on flame proof suit.
     
  2. Heat

    Heat Guest

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    Interesting news but expected.

    These politicians don't understand one thing banning weapons will only make it hard for the good guys to get one and defend themselves. The bad guys will have no shortage of ammo or weaponry even if weapons are banned all over. Sounds like common sense but alas common sense is all but common nowadays.
     

  3. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    doesnt help that Thomas Paine is dead and not sure schools offer the original Common Sense Paper or other Documents Thomas Paine wrote which include Common Sense,Rights of Man,Age of Reason,Origin of Free Masonry and other political writings.
     
  4. Wulf

    Wulf Premium Member

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    Dayam, MrAp 8-O

    He still owes me money.... <sigh>

    Wulf
     
  5. squirrelpotpie

    squirrelpotpie Premium Member

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    Hi Mr Apathy,

    Don't think you will need a flame proof suit here.

    After all this is a Steyr forum and most folks understand that these are tools that can be used for a variety of purposes.

    It is sad to hear that at least 170 US servicemen have lost their lives because the Iranian Government chose to make these fine weapons available to terrorists/insurgents who in turn chose to shoot our troops with them.

    The real message here, which you alluded to, is that we can not trust the Iranians or expect them to be truthful. Their expressed desire to only develop nuclear technology for peaceful purposes and denial of any intent to built nuclear weapons is meaningless and in light of their willingness to supply destructive weapons (IEDs, shoulder fired missiles, HS50s etc.) to those who would target us, rather worrisome.

    Sadly, their may be those within the Iranian government who see a nuclear conflagration/armageddon scenario as an inevitable/necessary step to remove the hordes of unbelievers and pave the way for a global Islam of their design.

    Umm, on second thought you just might want to hold onto that flame proof suit.
     
  6. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    http://www.playfuls.com/news_10_13968-ROUNDUP-Austrian-Rifles-Used-In-Iraq-Reports-Say.html

    http://billroggio.com/archives/2007/02/iranian_sniper_rifle.php

     
  7. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    Iran was working with china on developing 50bmg sniper rifle then they ordered Steyr's HS50. wouldnt be suprised if they tried copying it.

    wonder if all the stories are associated releases of the Telegraph

    btw something weird 170 casualties is the same number used in another story talking about Iran and EFP's which are super IED's with armor penetrating projectiles using explosives from Iran.
    that story made the major news from multiple sources

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070211/wl ... restusiran
     
  8. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    So how many Glocks do you think are in the middle east????????????
    thousands upon thousands.............Glock just sold Saudi Arabia 40,000 G22's.........I'm sure not ever Glock winds up in the hands of moderate muslims...... #-o
     
  9. smores

    smores Guest

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    What about all of the supplies we gave Afghanis during the War in Afghanistan with the Soviets in the 80's? Are we accountable for what Al Qaida and the Taliban have done with those?

    I don't think Steyr should be blamed or punished, but you know the media is going to make them seem like some evil corporation. Besides good guys vs. bad guys... it all depends on what side you're on. Austria isn't on anyone's side, they just want to make some money. When you're in the business of manufacturing arms, you can't really pick and choose who you sell weapons to if you want to be truly successful, IMO.
     
  10. poppopkelly

    poppopkelly New Member

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    Hmmm!

    Lets figure this out,

    We sold to Cuba back in the fifties surplus M-1 Garands, cal 30.06, also sold them surplus Thompsons and M-1 Carbine's how do I know? I stood watch in a tower directly across from their tower in the late 60's.

    We sold ultra millions to ban laden to fight the russians, if I recall correctly about 15 years worth of weapons and explosives.

    After WW-2 we sold off our surplus tanks to france, funny we found one underground just outside of the embassy during TET'68, they were using it as a VC radio base.

    And the list goes on. War is money and if you have something that the other guy wants, well everyone has a price. I bet if someone offered you $1000 for your M9, you sell it in a heart beat. I know I would.

    Remember it is not how you play, it is what you can play with that determines the winner.

    POP
     
  11. MrApathy

    MrApathy Active Member

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    Netfotoj that story you posted was a good catalyst. been looking into EUC End User Certificate and how arms trade works. very interesting reading. we dont have anything similar for gun dealers and joe 6 pack purchasers its not like a background check it states the purpose of the items purchased and use. the purchaser cannot resell them to third party and other stipulations seems to be bound in international law

    though the following is south africa I wouldnt doubt Europe is similar
    http://www.helplinelaw.com/law/south africa/exports/01.php
    http://www.services.gov.za/en-za/Authen ... icates.htm

    wish I new where that counter story came from cant say I heard of
    http://www.playfuls.com but the information that had was of more substance. wish I could figure out the source playfuls used.
    edit found it http://www.dpa.de
    Deutsche Presse-Agentur

    pdf file
    http://www.bis.doc.gov/DefenseIndustria ... ustria.pdf
    on Austria and trade probably dated more than just arms pretty informative. fills in missing spots the cia site has
    https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa ... os/au.html[/url]
     
  12. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Mr. A,

    You're right on track. The end line on the playfuls story said Copyright DPA, which has to be
    The DPA site says it's based in Hamburg, so it's a German news company.

    It also had the quote from our new owner, missing from the other stories:
    The two stories I quoted were the first two that popped up when I googled "Iran Iraq Steyr rifles". Ain't the Internet grand? We should thank Al Gore.
     
  13. 1. Under Austrian law Steyr could not sell firearms to a nation engaged in a war with another nation. The Austrian government reviewed and approved the sale.

    2. The end user agreement restricted Iran to using the HS 50s for protection of their boarders from drug smugglers.

    3. Steyr's international patent on the HS 50 expired long ago and Iran is well known for cloning everything from rifles to Cobra Gunships received from the United States.

    4. As of today no one has presented any hard evidence that the rifles recovered in Iraq were HS 50s produced by Steyr.

    5. Weapons from almost every nation including the United States have found their way into terrorist hands. All someone has to do is flip on the television and they will find terrorist in Lebanon who wave M-16s. I have seen pictures of weapons recovered in Iraq that include FN P-90s that were sold to Saudi Arabia.

    6. When Steyr made their sale in 2004 it was before the election of Ahmadinejad and there was a lot of hope in the international community including the United States that the reform parties in Iran would change the direction of the nation. As a result, there were no embargos or international treaties that Austria was under that restricted the sale.

    7. The United States has closed off its market to Steyr for the sale of imported assault rifles and as Steyr is in the small nation of Austria they are dependent on foreign sales.

    8. Steyr licensed F88 AUSTEYRs have killed as many terrorists as any other foreign rifle currently in production today. The Irish who carry the Steyr AUG have allowed US and NATO forces to be able to move out of Bosnia and Kosovo so they can conduct operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. Steyr AUGs are also in the hands of the US ICE protecting our homeland. Of course, none of this is mentioned.

    9. Once asked to cease their sale of the HS 50s to Iran Steyr did so although they gained nothing from agreeing to that.

    10. The United States State Department praised Stery for its decision to stop further sales to Iran.

    International arms trade is a real world thing and if Steyr didn't make the sale someother nation like Russia or China would have gladly done so. The United States is selling Cobra Gunships and soon F-16s to Pakistan even though that government could fall into terrorist hands at any point and is the home of UBL.

    I do not blame Steyr for any deaths that may have or could result from their sale and place the blame firmly where it belongs on the Government of Iran.