Inferior main battle rifle?

Discussion in 'Other Rifles' started by Netfotoj, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    I don't want to start a cat fight about .223 vs. 7.62x39, but I thought this commentary was quite interesting. FWIW, I think both .223 and 7.62x39 are too wimpy. My bottom floor begins somewhere at about .308 for rifles.

    Confederate Yankee, a blogger, comments on the Iraqi government’s purchase of $100 million in small arms from China, instead of from the U.S., with some rather pungent statements about the disadvantages of our troops’ .223 cal. main battle rifles vs. the Soviet bloc AK-design rifles.

    http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/242753.php

     
  2. BulletBait

    BulletBait New Member

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  3. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Premium Member

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    Good link BulletBait 8)

    That's 5.56x45 vs. 7.62x51, not the 7.62x39 8). But really, 5.56 offers a lot over the 7.62x39 if the loadings are right (of course the AK will always slay concrete blocks better). I, too, would opt for a .308 if we're talk range, but it seems like most of today's conflicts (or at least the ones we are currently focusing on) occur at ranges where the 5.56 shines. M855 is definitely not the ideal cartridge for two legged critters, and that is why (IMHO) it is getting such a bad rap these days.
     
  4. BulletBait

    BulletBait New Member

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    The problem with the M855 is that it's effectiveness was optimized for 20 inch barreled rifles.
    We adopted it and then switched to 14.5 inch carbines.
    Stupid.

    The M855 actually has a good rep in the M249 SAW.


    ETA: Syntax, your link is the mirror site for the one I posted :wink:

    EDIT by Syntax360: (right you are - fixed :))
     
  5. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    In case you didn't take the time to follow the link to Michael Yon's report from Iraq on the M4's lack of "killing power," here's an excerpt about that incident in battle involving Command Sergeant Major Robert Prosser in Mosul, Iraq on 19 Aug. 2005.

    After Prosser's M4 shot empty, he engaged the terrorist in bloody hand-to-hand combat, which he won with his fists. Here's Yon's photo of Prosser standing over the wounded terrorist. The blood is not his, it's the terrorist's.

    [​IMG]

    Incidentally, this particular report by Yon called Gates of Fire earned him an a**-chewing by the military brass because he picked up a dropped M4 and fired some shots in the defense of Prosser and Lt. Col. Erik Kurilla, who was wounded in the engagement. Journalists are not supposed to pick up weapons and fight, even if they are a former Green Beret like Yon. Here's the full report.

    http://michaelyon-online.com/wp/gates-of-fire.htm
     
  6. posterboy7

    posterboy7 New Member

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    Testicle and gut shots, while extremely painful are not instantly fatal. Also the determination of an enemy counts too.

    I shot him in da balls with a .223 but he didn't die! OMFG! Really! What a sucky round!

    Give me a break.
     
  7. Corbin Dallas

    Corbin Dallas New Member

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    No kidding...

    All ammo has it's limitations, if there was a perfect round, there would be no other weapons.

    I have heard stories from buddies of mine that are in the sandbox, and they tell me about how well the M4 works in CQC and how lethal and accurate it is at 300 yards.

    So, there are two sides to each. The weapon is only as good as the operator and the operator is only as good as his weapon.
     
  8. ChillyWilly

    ChillyWilly New Member

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    I have heard the same thing.....and then I try and imagine going room to room with an AK (when I was a youngster a buddy had one)....

    no matter what the reality I am glad to hear we are researching and developing a new weapon for our troops....they have a hard enough job without having to worry about IF their weapon will take down an enemy....
     
  9. posterboy7

    posterboy7 New Member

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    In CQC I'd want a 14" 12 ga.
     
  10. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    Remember you are talking about 5.56 ball ammo. Not necesarily the M4. 7.62x39 in ball ammo is much more potent for sure........AK's are better then the M4 in many, many ways......I like them both. I have HP's for my home AR in 55grain.....doesn't go through the walls as easily.......but works better then ball ammo.......
     
  11. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Michael Yon reviews a new book out called AK-47: The Weapon that Changed the Face of War. His review is a fuller look at the merits/weaknesses of the AK 7.62x39 vs. M4 5.56x45.

     
  12. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    Yep, the government has to change the caliber eventually. If we weren't in the middle of a war, we might have switched to 6.8 by now and maybe even a new battle rifle. But who knows how long it will be before that happens now. You can thank our dumb ass Clinton for destroying thousands of M14's that the military could be using right now........and the rest could have been sold off in the CMP program to worthy folks like us...... :wink:
     
  13. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Clinton destroyed M-14s? Absolute heresy! I never heard that, but I'm not surprised. After eight years under Bill, our military was all but strip-searched. I've wondered why I could never find an M-14. I thought maybe the military was still sitting on them just in case. One more reason not to allow the second coming of Bill and Hillary, the worst twofer evah! :evil:
     
  14. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    that is what I have been told Net, and the source was someone I trust. I will look into this deeper with very knowledgable sources just to make sure, but I'm sure I heard that from independent sources too. It makes sense......... :sick:
     
  15. TheGuyver

    TheGuyver New Member

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    There is a new carbine out, in .45, that reduces recoil by 60% and muzzle rise by 95%.... For close quarters combat, there is nothing better IMHO. I think this little baby, if it passes all the testing, would make a fine duty weapon, out to say 100 yards... maybe more with a longer barrel.
    [​IMG]
    The KRISS Super V System : http://www.kriss-tdi.com/content/view/2/2/
     
  16. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Very interesting. Keep us posted when it goes on sale. I'd really love one in 10mm or 357 Sig, but .45 ACP will do for a starter. :mrgreen:
     
  17. m00t

    m00t New Member

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    Hey, I recognize that thing!

    [​IMG]

    Guess what it looked like before they went all tactical!

    [​IMG]

    Gets a hearty LOL from me! Also, I believe they were saying it was an SMG. Why don't we just go back to the Thompson - a fine piece of work. :D

    Then again, this thing is surprisingly controllable... check out the video!
     
  18. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    [​IMG]

    I presume the long-barreled version would not require an SBR license? Hope so. I'm allergic to BATF paperwork, not to mention the $250 fee, but if I had to... :mrgreen:
     
  19. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    The debate about AK vs. AR is about to get even livelier with big fat defense contracts on the line for Colt, FN and possibly H&K and a few other AR-model manufacturers.

    The U.S. military has begun a process to help the Iraqi Army changeover from AKs to M16/M4s and Bob Owens of Confederate Yankee smells a rat.

    Here’s the military.com story about the purchase plans of M16/M4s for Iraq.
    Owens comments:
    And lo and behold, up pops U.S. Rep. John Murtha (D-King-of-Pork) who just happens to have a good friend, former Marine Gen. William G. Keys, who is now the President of Colt Defense, the leading M16/M4 manufacturer. Hmmm…
    Ace of Spades boils the AKs to ARs in Iraq story down with this headline: “The Military-Legislative Complex: Could Iraq's Switch To Dust-Sensitive M-16's Possibly Have Anything To Do With The Manufacturer's Support of Screamin' Jack Murtha?”

    Maybe I'm just being cynical, but when the King of Pork's name pops up, there must be some money flowing somewhere that will benefit Jack "Abscam Unindicted Co-Conspirator" Murtha. :evil:
     
  20. ChillyWilly

    ChillyWilly New Member

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    I hate all these "friends" that get goverment contracts.....espcially when it is gonna cost more troops lives....I hope our country gets its balls back and takes some of these POS "friends" out back and puts two in the head....fucking next we'll be changing the good ol USA into the UCA....United Corporations of America