If you are not ready then don't

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Deluxe247, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. Deluxe247

    Deluxe247 Supporting Member

    2,497
    2
    0
    Read this: http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/loca ... 3200c.html

    If he wasn't ready to follow through then why the hell did he have the damn gun on him in the first place. It doesn't matter who/what the threat is. You must act quickly and accordingly. A concealed permit is not a novelty. It's something that must be take very seriously and you should know the consequences.

    Thoughts?

    -D
     
  2. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

    1,791
    10
    38
    hindsight will always be 20-20. and this hindsight produces a clear and decisive decision to drop the perp. we'll never know what he saw. but the description of events certainly warrants opening fire.

    it does go to show that just because someone has a ccw, that individual isn't a loose cannon looking for an excuse to use it.

    i like to think that i would have taken and kept cover while "covering down" on the attacker. (gun drawn and finger indexed) i likely would have fired after hearing his gun shots and certainly would have fired as the muzzle was directed at me. the downside is what's behind the target. busy mall... bullets flying. there is a degree of potential disaster at your own hands. as someone at glocktalk once said, if you're planning on laying down suppresive fire at the mall, be prepared to pay for everything your bullets hit.

    i'm not sure what his fear of a head shot was. i know that bullets aren't magic, they just make tiny holes in people. maybe he thought a few body hits would stop the attack without being lethal. but if you're justified in drawing your weapon and firing, it is assumed to be a lethal defense; though many gun shot wounds do not reult in death. that being said, a good clean head shot is tough to beat, especially considering the new found retail availability of body armor and the number of random shooters who are using it these days knowing that their action will invite return fire.

    hopefully none of us will ever be in a similar situation.
     

  3. Deluxe247

    Deluxe247 Supporting Member

    2,497
    2
    0
    I should have been more clear in my original post. I was looking for thoughts that pertain to the specific point of the situation where he re-holstered his pistol and was being confronted.

    I don't think people that carry should just go off willy-nilly and start shooting back at BG's with guns in public places. I agree the the head-shot is hard to beat and he had the opportunity to end things right there.

    -D
     
  4. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

    1,791
    10
    38
    oh, well yeah.

    what was that all about. someone walking around shooting the place up, you've allready drawn and as he gets closer, you... re-holster? i don't think so.

    i'm keeping cover and watching that muzzle as i breathe deep, check the back ground and get ready to dump the guy; which is the polar opposite of re-holstering.

    again, we weren't there, but it does appear he lacked the ability to follow through with his self-described intention of protecting himslef and others around him.
     
  5. revjen45

    revjen45 Member

    66
    0
    6
    "If you're gonna shoot, shoot- don't talk"_ Tuco "The Good , the Bad, and the Ugly"
     
  6. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

    1,681
    3
    38
    the more I know, the more I see targets of the general shooting public at ranges, the more convinced I get that most of the people who have CCW shouldn't have them......I say that with the thought that I myself have sold two pistols to friends, each having shot these pistols twice in 6 years......one has a CCW. It's about the training.......I can tell from the conversations I read here that many have that training, and others don't......without the training it becomes "PULP FICTION", .....and I think that the general shooter THINKS he has a magic wand.......and not a tool that requires constant work and repetition, training and good instruction.
    I can't tell you how many times I get a range monitor at my range asking me what I'm doing (usually retired and sometimes law enforcement and looking perplexed)......and when I explain it......they say "you can't do that, its dangerous", or "why would you let the BG get that close?" and numerous other "cant's"...
    my favorite, "don't point the pistol in the air to reload, you'll hit an airplane".........well, I'd rather not let the BG get close at all, but I've turned my back to pump gas once and found someone on top of me who was 20yards away just a few seconds ago......I'll train for any circumstance I can imagine............bigtaco had a better plan
     
  7. Matches

    Matches New Member

    234
    0
    0
    I know a lot of people who say they could never shoot or kill someone. If someone doesnt think they can pull the trigger and kill when the situation warrants it, they should not be carrying.

    Matches
     
  8. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

    287
    0
    0
    Being someone without law enforcement or military experience, but having been around (shot)guns my whole life, I tend to soak up any experiences from military and LEO's that I can. This looked like someone who didnt know/remember the basic color codes. This, IMHO, started at white, should have been yellow/orange, should have gone to red quickly, and black even sooner. It sounds like he wasnt looking for cover, #1. And, like you guys said already, if you have your gun drawn, its already using lethal force to defend yourself, theres no point putting it away. But I think if gunshots are heard, and you can see imminent danger to people, including yourself, you should give one warning, ready to fire.

    Question: Is it better to escape and inform police, or to shoot the suspect? As a civilian. What are the consequenses of each? In this exact case only. What I mean is, if you have the opportunity to escape, should you, as far as LAW is concerned? I think if this were to happen I already know my answer, I just want to know what the experts think.
    -RC
     
  9. revjen45

    revjen45 Member

    66
    0
    6
    RiceCakes- When I took FAS-3 Marty Hayes impressed upon the class that the best way to prevail in a gunfight is to avoid it if you can. Protecting the Public is the job of the police. If you can escape the situation , then that's the best plan. One participant in another forum was there, and he got his family and other bystanders out of danger via an exit, which was the best thing he could do. Remember, when the police arrive they don't who is who, and if you're standing there with a drawn gun you could easily be mistaken for the BG. I agree that once you have drawn in a firefight you probably don't want to reholster and try to talk a sociopath out of killing you. All I can say is if I were ever caught in this situation I hope I can find an exit and escape without me or my loved ones getting hurt.
     
  10. revjen45

    revjen45 Member

    66
    0
    6
    P.S.- I don't pretend to answer as an "expert."
     
  11. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

    287
    0
    0
    Good point about the loved ones. Usually when at the mall they are with you, that would be paramount of course. But I guess if you get caught in a shop you could hide also...
     
  12. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

    1,681
    3
    38
    I agree, this man's job was not to protect the public, which I think he said he thought he should do. His job was protecting himself at that point. He failed to do that.
     
  13. Matches

    Matches New Member

    234
    0
    0
    Drawing and firing should always be the last resort. If you can avoid a situation do so.

    Matches
     
  14. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

    287
    0
    0
    Just curious, if you guys saw someone shooting up teenagers at the mall, and had no loved ones with you, would you intervene? Ive been fighting myself about this one, but I dont think I could not do something about it. What do you guys think?
     
  15. theFiasco

    theFiasco New Member

    106
    0
    0
    Yes. Intervention is an appropriate response.

    -tF
     
  16. madecov

    madecov Active Member

    1,190
    3
    38
    I agree 100%.
    That being said, every interview I have had for an LEO job they ask the same question. Could you shoot and kill somone?

    I have answered the same way each time.

    "I don't know, I beleive that I can but until faced with that prospect I can only speculate" That being said, experience has told me I can if I have to. I have come very close on several occasions and the bad guy was lucky he complied and dropped his weapon.
     
  17. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

    287
    0
    0
    Ive never been close to my fellow man, I know I could drop one if they were killing unarmed people (or shooting at me) and go unfazed. What scares me is the legal repurcussions. It could ruin your entire family. Does anyone know how severe it would be if you dropped someone in this situation, where someone is shooting up a mall? Or does it depend, and if so, who does it depend on? Will you get booked? Weapon confiscated?
     
  18. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

    1,681
    3
    38
  19. ministerofdeath

    ministerofdeath New Member

    925
    0
    0
    Automatic Movement

    When you place that firearm into your concealed holster and head out into the public you must be prepared each time for a lethal confrontation.

    To some carrying a pistol becomes so routine its like having a cell phone on them and that level of comfort can become complacency. Training through IDPA competitions and weekly trips to the range should lead to automatic movement...reflex shooting. A person who carries should be comfortable with the sound of bullets and should be as well practiced as possible to eliminate as much of the stress of a real-life live fire situation as possible. Accuracy falls to 30% in a high stress situation than what you shoot at the range in a controlled situation. Therefore, you better be as excellent as possible at the range.

    As for legal concerns defense of other is always an affirmative defense in any action that results in a homicide. Legal concerns should not, in my opinion, be something you contemplate in the middle of a life and death situation. If you are not prepared to spend a night in jail, hire a damn good defense attorney, and stand before the man than you probably shouldn't carry concealed.

    Background is always a concern and that is why I would discourage against taking head shots from any distance in that situation until you have placed shots into the center mass. Furthermore, a person carrying a concealed weapon should always carry JHP or EFMJ ammunition to avoid overpenetration. If you are more than 15 feet or there are simply too many innocent bystanders than you should withdraw while covering your target unless already engaged or in immediate danger of being engaged requiring you to fire.
     
  20. ministerofdeath

    ministerofdeath New Member

    925
    0
    0
    LEGAL CONCERNS - READ DISCLAIMER

    DISCLAIMER:
    THE FOLLOWING IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE BUT RATHER A STATEMENT OF PERSONAL OPINION APPLYING COMMON LAW. FOR LEGAL ADVICE THE READER SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY LICENSED TO PRACTICE IN HIS/HER STATE OF RESIDENCE.

    I would say that most likely a shooter in the above situation (mall) that accidently shot an innocent bystander would be charged with either Felony Murder or Involuntary Manslaughter.

    FELONY MURDER
    According to the felony murder doctrine, if a death occurs during the commission of a felony inherently dangerous to human life in which you participate, you are liable for murder (1st and/or 2nd degree, depending
    on the jurisdiction) in addition to the felony.

    Some states have a limited list of Felonies that if their commission results in death will give rise to Felony Murder. However, some states have "Catch All" phrases that will include a wide range of felonies.

    Felony Murder carries the same punishment as 1st or 2nd degree murder depending on the state. This could leave to life in prison and rarely to the death sentence in capital punishment states.

    INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER
    An unintentional (and probably accidental) killing committed without malice as a result of the defendant's grossly negligent or reckless behavior.

    The above is probably the most likely serious charge a prosecutor would bring against a citizen who accidently shot bystanders in an attempt to defend himself or others. The requirements or elements of involuntary manslaughter that must be met to prove guilt depends on state law.

    This really depends on how reckless you are in your action and that is typically a question for a jury.

    CONCLUSION
    There are many, many, many others charges that could be filed against an individual who shot an innocent bystander in a mall by accident while trying to defend himself and/or others. A person who is charged with the above crimes will be arrested and his firearm confiscated as evidence. If you are found not guilty your firearm will be returned to you.

    DO NOT carry concealed unless you are licensed to do so and willing to accept months of trial and possible prison time for your actions. Of course, Florida's new statute allows for no duty to retreat and would be ideal in this situation allowing for no charges to be filed unless the prosecutor suspected that the act was not committed in self-defense. However, most states have a duty to retreat and that makes it very difficult to offer the defense of self-defense of yourself and/or others.

    KNOW THE LAW....talk to an attorney most will give you a fair statement of the law for a very reasonable price. You spend hundreds on your firearm and CCW license so, why not spend some money to know the law?