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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
.40 S&W and the 10mm rounds are exactly the same diameter and length. The only difference is the casing itself. The 10mm casings are slightly longer and are loaded slightly hotter than the typical .40 S&W.

I am not sure that there is a legitimate issue with loading .40S&W rounds in a weapon designated for a 10mm round. However I will concede that there is a major issue the other way around. If you tried to load a 10mm in a weapon designated for .40S&W you would have a problem. It would be like loading 9X21 in a gun designated for 9X19

The rounds would shoot (providing your gun can hold the increase pressure) but the casing would not extract reliably or consistently, if it extracts at all.

The 40 S&W was created by taking the 10mm FBI round and shaving the casing down. Those that reload their own bullets will agree that the actual bullet itself is exactly the same. The pressure you would see from a 10mm would be something like that of a .40S&W +P or +P+ . If your Gun is designated for a 10mm then you should be able to shoot any 10mm or .40S&W without incident.
 

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.40 S&W and the 10mm rounds are exactly the same diameter and length. The only difference is the casing itself. The 10mm casings are slightly longer and are loaded slightly hotter than the typical .40 S&W.

I am not sure that there is a legitimate issue with loading .40S&W rounds in a weapon designated for a 10mm round. However I will concede that there is a major issue the other way around. If you tried to load a 10mm in a weapon designated for .40S&W you would have a problem. It would be like loading 9X21 in a gun designated for 9X19

The rounds would shoot (providing your gun can hold the increase pressure) but the casing would not extract reliably or consistently, if it extracts at all.

The 40 S&W was created by taking the 10mm FBI round and shaving the casing down. Those that reload their own bullets will agree that the actual bullet itself is exactly the same. The pressure you would see from a 10mm would be something like that of a .40S&W +P or +P+ . If your Gun is designated for a 10mm then you should be able to shoot any 10mm or .40S&W without incident.
If it were that simple everybody would be doing it and there wouldn't be conversion barrels for it. I understand where the round came from but you need to be very concerned with headspace. The 40cal will not sit in the barrel correctly and will most likely sit much deeper. You will not have any sort of reliability IF it works at all. The extractor MIGHT hold it in place for the firing pin to strike but I wouldn't want to be the one to test it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
The nominal difference in length of the rounds is negligible at best.

I have not yet come across a gun that I haven't been able to interchange the .40 S&W in place of the 10mm. The 10mm Round is slightly longer than that of the .40 and for that reason the round will sit farther into the barrel.

The rounds themselves are exactly the same diameter and the casings are exactly the same except for the overall length of the casing. The extractor will (in all cases I have seen ) extract the casing reliably and effectively.

I believe the 40 S&W is a 10X21MM round while the standard 10mm round is 10X25MM. This meaning that the 10mm round is 4mm longer. This is all casing and not any other factor.

The only factor that I can conceive of that would potentially cause a problem is if the 40 S&W round can't effectively seat in the barrel. This would cause the round to Not perch in the barrel. Then upon firing, the round is not in the barrel and you would have catastrophic failure, however I don't know of a gun that has this problem.

The differences in the 10 mm round and the 40S&W have been extensively discussed in this thread. http://www.steyrclub.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3715
 

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The nominal difference in length of the rounds is negligible at best.

I have not yet come across a gun that I haven't been able to interchange the .40 S&W in place of the 10mm. The 10mm Round is slightly longer than that of the .40 and for that reason the round will sit farther into the barrel.

The rounds themselves are exactly the same diameter and the casings are exactly the same except for the overall length of the casing. The extractor will (in all cases I have seen ) extract the casing reliably and effectively.

I believe the 40 S&W is a 10X21MM round while the standard 10mm round is 10X25MM. This meaning that the 10mm round is 4mm longer. This is all casing and not any other factor.

The only factor that I can conceive of that would potentially cause a problem is if the 40 S&W round can't effectively seat in the barrel. This would cause the round to Not perch in the barrel. Then upon firing, the round is not in the barrel and you would have catastrophic failure, however I don't know of a gun that has this problem.

The differences in the 10 mm round and the 40S&W have been extensively discussed in this thread. http://www.steyrclub.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3715
Are you saying that you have personally shot many rounds of .40 through a 10mm gun in stock configuration?

Give this article a read. If you still want to do then go for it.

http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html


Here are some of the scarier quotes from their testing

unlike revolver rounds such as the 38 Special and .357 Magnum, these auto-pistol cartridges headspace on the case mouth. That is the bullet and cartridge generally is positioned properly in respect to the barrel rifling and other parts of the gun by the lips of the cartridge case being pressed up against a shoulder in the chamber. The .40 cartridge will position the bullet about 1/8 inch back from the proper point. Note how deeply set into the S&W Model 1076's chamber the .40 S&W round is in the photo to the left. If the pistol were fully assembled, the cartridge's rim would not be engaged by the extractor claw. Or, if it was, then the round would be headspacing off the extractor, with only the tension of that part to hold it firmly against the breechface. And that's where the trouble starts!


This Federal .40 S&W brass not only suffered a pierced primer and an "ironed" case head, but the force of the ignition in the S&W Model 1076 actually deprimed the case!
The operative term here is "Stand-Off1," where the .40 S&W (actually 0.03mm narrower than the 10mm) is somehow slipping past the extractor and head-spacing on the case mouth deep in the 10mm chamber, leaving 1/8" of "stand-off" between the case head and the breechface. Now, if the firing pin is long enough (with the S&W M-1076 it was 100%!), when the round is touched off, it is propelled that distance rearward faster than the firing pin can retract, thus causing primer perforation with an attendent 120-150 fps drop in velocity. Without the breechface in full contact support there are huge amounts of heat generated back there, and this causes primer flow and contributes to case head deformation. The notches ripped from the extractor rim are as a result of the near-molten case head being slammed back against the extractor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Are you saying that you have personally shot many rounds of .40 through a 10mm gun in stock configuration?

Give this article a read. If you still want to do then go for it.

http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html


Here are some of the scarier quotes from their testing
The last time I was in Atlanta I was visiting a friend of mine that owns a glock ( I forget now which model) that is 10mm. We shot over 100 rounds of my 40 S&W rounds through it without incident. However I must point out that my 40S&W rounds were made by shaving down a 10mm casing. I also shot 100 of these same rounds through my M40-A1, again without incident.

Alas. After reading the article that you posted I will concede that it may not be a great idea. :) I will continue to research this and see what other information I can find on this.
 

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The last time I was in Atlanta I was visiting a friend of mine that owns a glock ( I forget now which model) that is 10mm. We shot over 100 rounds of my 40 S&W rounds through it without incident. However I must point out that my 40S&W rounds were made by shaving down a 10mm casing. I also shot 100 of these same rounds through my M40-A1, again without incident.

Alas. After reading the article that you posted I will concede that it may not be a great idea. :) I will continue to research this and see what other information I can find on this.
The cool thing is that you can get the conversion barrel pretty cheap and do exactly what you were saying w/o worry. I like the 10mm round itself. My local shop has a Glock 29 for $429 and I keep looking at it. But, like yourself, I don't want ANOTHER caliber to keep up with.
 

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Can anyone suggest a good Glock to replace the SR9 from Ruger? I have the SR9 set asside for a bedside weapon. I want something that will have good capacity and in the .40S&W caliber.

Thanks :)
Just get the 19 and buy some ammo.

Thank us all later.

Eh, Eh, Eh.....

Just do it.
 

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I am already into the 10mm platform so I want a G29SF for my next purchase.

That said, the G19 is almost the answer to any handgun question. Almost.

I would say a G20 is the perfect sidearm for all occasions but its hard to conceal. A full house 10mm 230gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Checked Hardcast round is bad news bears for uh... most bears.
 

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If your wife already has a .45, why not try Glock 30. Since you already have a .45 platform to feed. I have shot thousands of .40 rounds out of my issue Glock 22 as have my co workers. No kb issues. These were issued in 2000. The only thing I do not like about the Glock is the finger grooves. They smush my fingers. I know, I know, whaaaa!! That being said, I own a gen 2 Glock 21, smooth front, for winter ccw and a Steyr m40a1 for ccw every other time. Not to start the 9mm vs 40 vs 45, but why the 9mm for self defense? Sure they shoot smoothly, normally accurate, low price ammo, have high cap mags but the damage a higher caliber round delivers is devastating. I do not say this lightly, as a leo, I hope that if I ever get into a gunfight its with a stressed out guy with a 9mm or less caliber. If you can shoot under stress wouldn't a larger caliber help you even more. If you just have to have a 9mm get a Steyr or a Glock 26 with a pearce grip extention for ccw. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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If your wife already has a .45, why not try Glock 30. Since you already have a .45 platform to feed. I have shot thousands of .40 rounds out of my issue Glock 22 as have my co workers. No kb issues. These were issued in 2000. The only thing I do not like about the Glock is the finger grooves. They smush my fingers. I know, I know, whaaaa!! That being said, I own a gen 2 Glock 21, smooth front, for winter ccw and a Steyr m40a1 for ccw every other time. Not to start the 9mm vs 40 vs 45, but why the 9mm for self defense? Sure they shoot smoothly, normally accurate, low price ammo, have high cap mags but the damage a higher caliber round delivers is devastating. I do not say this lightly, as a leo, I hope that if I ever get into a gunfight its with a stressed out guy with a 9mm or less caliber. If you can shoot under stress wouldn't a larger caliber help you even more. If you just have to have a 9mm get a Steyr or a Glock 26 with a pearce grip extention for ccw. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!
Just beware of the possible pinky pinch with Glock 30, so you might need to replace mag plates with the Pierce extentions. Another thing is the beefy handle, otherwise, perfect 45.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
If your wife already has a .45, why not try Glock 30. Since you already have a .45 platform to feed. I have shot thousands of .40 rounds out of my issue Glock 22 as have my co workers. No kb issues. These were issued in 2000. The only thing I do not like about the Glock is the finger grooves. They smush my fingers. I know, I know, whaaaa!! That being said, I own a gen 2 Glock 21, smooth front, for winter ccw and a Steyr m40a1 for ccw every other time. Not to start the 9mm vs 40 vs 45, but why the 9mm for self defense? Sure they shoot smoothly, normally accurate, low price ammo, have high cap mags but the damage a higher caliber round delivers is devastating. I do not say this lightly, as a leo, I hope that if I ever get into a gunfight its with a stressed out guy with a 9mm or less caliber. If you can shoot under stress wouldn't a larger caliber help you even more. If you just have to have a 9mm get a Steyr or a Glock 26 with a pearce grip extention for ccw. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!
I am an avid 40S&W caliber owner for Personal defense, I am not looking for a 9mm for myself. My wife would prefer to have a 9mm for her bedside gun. My thoughts on the caliber and effectiveness have been well documented on this forum :D Syntax and myself have (in the past) had extensive conversations about it.

It can be found here : http://www.steyrclub.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3715 Personally I enjoyed the debate and the conversation. I believe there is a lot of information to be had here. It took a while to locate this thread, wish it would have been used as a informative thread but alas it was not meant to be.
 

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Theres not much talk about Hydro static shock between the calibers, or not much that I saw in that linked discussion. I skimmed all 4 pages but didn't seem to notice it being discussed, more on penetration that anything.
 

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That's because there's no scientific yardstick for measuring the effect of hydrostatic shock and its relation to incapacitation. The ballistic community generally agrees that pistol ammunition lacks the necessary kinetic energy for hydrostatic shock to play a serious role in incapacitation - hydrostatic shock becomes a much more significant talking point in rifle ammunition. That's not to say there's zero effect when discussing pistols, or that more isn't better, but it's just something that is kind of hard to argue around. Penetration numbers are easily measured and the results repeatable - it takes a lot of the guesswork and circumstantial elements away from the discussion.
 

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I wish I could remember where I ran across it, but there's a forensic pathologist discussing gunshot trauma. He states that while there is a cavity that opens, there isn't any residual damage in the area which supposedly is devastated by the projectile.

I believe he is speaking only of handgun trauma, not rifle. Having seen the ballistics gel damage from rifle, I think that hydrostatic shock does it.

High speed image capture would probably show what really goes on.

I'd be willing to bet that without an injury to a critical organ from direct penetration, that pigs would continue to live when shot by a handgun round, even a 10mm.
 

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It sounds like you are talking about the secondary wound channel created by gunshot trauma, and you are absolutely correct. While the energy from a gunshot does cause tissue to flex away from the permanent wound cavity, tissue is very elastic - the energy deposited from handguns is usually insufficient to cause any significant tearing. This is not true with rifles - the energy they unleash does a great deal of damage as it tears away from the permanent wound cavity. This is one of the primary reasons why rifles are so good at incapacitating people - the shock-wave their ammunition unleashes in the human body is often sufficient to jar those vital organs adjacent to the the permanent wound channel; if that energy rattles the spine, for example, it's going to be a bad day for the target, regardless of whether or not the bullet actually contacts it. Your handgun bullet is going to have to travel a lot closer to the spine to have the same effect, and even then with reduced effect.
 

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That's because there's no scientific yardstick for measuring the effect of hydrostatic shock and its relation to incapacitation. The ballistic community generally agrees that pistol ammunition lacks the necessary kinetic energy for hydrostatic shock to play a serious role in incapacitation - hydrostatic shock becomes a much more significant talking point in rifle ammunition. That's not to say there's zero effect when discussing pistols, or that more isn't better, but it's just something that is kind of hard to argue around. Penetration numbers are easily measured and the results repeatable - it takes a lot of the guesswork and circumstantial elements away from the discussion.
See I would argue this based on the ballistic gel when dye is added in. If you see the surface area of the 9mm its vary narrow, yet if you look at all the others there is a much great separation. I vaguely recall that 357 SIG had a measure expansion of 18" which would produce a great deal of hydrostatic shock. In theory very similar to what the .40 S&W & .45 ACP produce but since they are heavier rounds & travel slower they are not able to penetrate the surface enough to produce the same effect.

I mean the reality is that 357 SIG is a 9mm just with a ton of stank on it. The 357 SIG mimics a SABOT round to some degree, but has the added benefit of a tight barrel. I would love to see what the result would be of a .40 S&W necked down to say a .50 shell or say a .45 shell.

Ran across the hydrostatic shock when I was reasurching silencers and all that stuff. It was pointed out that one way to determine the effectiveness of a bullets hydrostatic shock effect would be in study terminal would statistics in police shootings. To which it was found that on average a 357 SIG would average 1.?? rounds before the would became terminal, the .45 cal would average around 2 rounds, and I forgot the rest. But I know there have been plenty of cases where cop's have emptied their 9mm mags and needed to go for the second before the criminal would stop or die.
 

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And there are plenty of cases when cops had to empty their .40s and .45s too. And even incidents of people walking through buckshot, 5.56s, and .308s. Every shooting is unique. One guy may instantly collapse from a well placed .32, while another proceeds to make a 90 minute speech and lead a country. Most people are going to stop when shot - I'm not going to re-argue the merits of penertation testing and why they are the only truly solid indicator of ammunition performance. You are free to read the thread Vauxurellius linked if you wish to check out my opinions on that - we did a pretty exhausting job covering it. I will say that you never know what life is going to throw at you, if you're ever involved in a shooting the circumstances will be unique, and my personal criteria for ammunition performance evaluation rests solely on whether or not the bullet is physically capable of penetrating vitals - everything else is left to chance and circumstance. YMMV... :)
 

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CALIBER BULLET WEIGHT VELOCITY ENERGY
380 Auto 80gr DPX 1050fps 196ftlbs
9mm Luger 80gr DPX 1300fps 300ftlbs
9mm Luger+P 115gr DPX 1250fps 399ftlbs
9X23 Win 125gr DPX 1350fps 506ftlbs
10 MM Auto 155gr DPX 1200fps 496ftlbs
38 Special+P 110gr DPX 1050fps 269ftlbs
38 Super 125gr DPX 1350fps 506ftlbs
357 Mag 125gr DPX 1300fps 469ftlbs
357 Sig 125gr DPX 1350fps 505ftlbs
400 COR®BON 155gr DPX 1200fps 496ftlbs
40 S&W 140gr DPX 1200fps 448ftlbs
45 GAP 160gr DPX 1075fps 411ftlbs
45 Auto+P 185gr DPX 1075fps 475ftlbs
45 Auto 160gr DPX 1050fps 392ftlbs
 

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You can't go wrong with a Glock 19 (9mm) but I am very wary of any Glock 40cal (G23 or G22) with the factory barrel. Too many Kabooms that people sweep under the rug or make up excuses for. I am sure that some here will disagree but in a Glock, I'd get a Glock 19. It may be as close to perfect as a polymer pistol gets today. I think if it had the Steyr safety in the trigger gaurd I'd own 3 of them. :D
+1 the most popular pistol in the world I think.....G19.....forget the 23......
or go with the 26 if you want smaller......
 
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