favorite debate

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by bigtaco, Mar 3, 2007.

best defensive shooting competition

  1. idpa

    20.0%
  2. ipsc

    80.0%
  1. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    idpa is better than ipsc. explain.

    OR

    ipsc is better than idpa. explain.

    no right or wrong answers here, i just love hearing the opinions and thought processes behind everyone's stance.
     
  2. ThaiBoxer

    ThaiBoxer Active Member

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    I'll try:

    IDPA does its best to be realistic and decent practice for CHL, while IPSC is about race guns and is too gamey.
     

  3. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    finally a response. and the exact response i have expected. this is exactly what i was told about idpa after having shot ipsc.

    here's my .02 on it. keep in mind that in my area, we have a long rich ipsc tradition and many of the top shooters shoot this competition. as such, i may not have experienced the best idpa stages.

    with the production class in ipsc, which was created in reponse to idpa, a tricked out expensive race gun that's totally impractical for carry isn't the only choice. lots of us shoot totally stock pistols and i've seen more than one guy shoot a revolver at ipsc, even with 26 rounds in a stage.

    as far as "gamey", and this is where i kinda wonder how we define gamey...

    in ipsc, the most common command is, "engage targets as visible". which seems exactly what i will do when those targets are real combatants. when the shtf, i'm going to engage targets as visible.

    in idpa, you MUST engage targets "tactically" meaning "split the pie". this may or may not be "as visible". and you get penalized for not doing this. so now, when approaching multiple targets, you're forced to think about which target to engage first... to avoid a penalty. the presumption is that by training in this way, you will always be shooting behind cover and never expose yourself. but in real life the targets are probably going to move. you aren't going to think, you're going to see a target and take it out. period. so honestly, idpa seems a little"gamey" to me.

    in my few personal idpa experiences, here are the beefs i had with it.

    one stage we had to carry a briefcase while we engaged three targets during which time we "must be walking towards the targets and shooting". then we continued walking to a barricade where we had to set the briefcase down on a dot, do a tactical reload, engage some targets from one side of the barricade, other targets from the other side of the barricade. but you had to shoot the blue popper first, then the three papers then the red steel to end the stage. what? sounds like a fricking game to me!!!

    never in my life, EVER, when confronted with three armed attackers will i attempt to maintain control of the briefcase, while i WALK TOWARDS them, engaging in one handed shooting. i don't care what's in the briefcase. screw it. and what exactly is so tactical about this scenario. three armed guys, and you're WALKING TOWARDS THEM ENGAGING THEM ONE HANDED WITH NO COVER!!!

    you can be penalized for putting the briefcase down in the wrong spot. what does that have to do with surviving a gunfight? you're penalized for engaging the wrong targets from behind the barricade. in real life, if i've been lucky enough to find cover, i'll engage whatever target i can, whenever i can see them. period.

    the idea with the blue popper is that he's advancing towards you first. hey man, in real life, you'll know who's advancing towards you first. and obviously engage him first. but i don't need a penalty because after remembering to put the briefcase down just right, and after remembering to engage t4-7 from the correct side of the barricade i forgot and shot the paper first.

    too many rules!!! too much game in idpa in my opinion. they're looking for you to break "tactical rules" in order to penalize you for not following the rules. some of these "tactical rules" seem of dubious value to me.

    that stage in ipsc would have read, "x number of paper, x number of steel. engage as visible." and if this exact scenario transpired in real life, this is exactly how any of us would handle it. there's no one to tell us which attacker will do what when. there's no one to tell us in a real life gunfight, "hit these targets from this side of the barricade and those from the other". in real life, if you're lucky enough to find cover you'll engage targets as visible... i promise.



    in other words, both idpa and ipsc are trying to simulate gunfights. ipsc lets you fight your way. idpa forces you to fight they're way, or else.

    also, it stinks to me that someone shooting idpa could have all a zone hits and the lowest time (probably winning this real life gun fight) but lose the stage because: he was not actively walking while one shot was fired, put the briefcase down on the wrong spot, engaged one target from the wrong side of the barricade despite the fact it was clearly visible and a combatant, and shot the red steel before the blue steel. that to me seems VERY gamey.
     
  4. ThaiBoxer

    ThaiBoxer Active Member

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    Your doing this on a much higher level than I am prepared for. I was leaning toward typical internet debate:

    You are wrong, and I am right.

    You are either a fool or a liar. Which is it?

    or maybe IP-SICK sux, IDPA rulez!

    :D

    I have to fix dinner and my daughter is bawling. Please allow me some time to craft a suitable response.

    Ben
     
  5. pickenup

    pickenup New Member

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    At one IPSC match I was at, on one of the squads (not mine thankfully)
    every………single………person………
    Individually, had to practice (game) the stage, just before they were ready to shoot it.

    every………single………person………
    had to walk the entire course, pointing their fingers at all the targets, from every possible position . Backtracking and re-pointing their stubby little fingers. Over and over and over.....

    My squad gave some time when we first got to a stage for people to do this, if they wished. We got out of there about 1:30pm. That other squad didn’t get out until after 5:00pm. A friend of mine was stuck on that squad, he told me about it, that was the last time he shot IPSC. That was a couple of years ago.

    I can just see this.
    Wait Mr. Bad guy, let me “game” this scenario and see which is the best way to take on you, and your six buddies.

    As for IDPA, I don’t care for the IDPA’s round count limit, or the “slice the pie” mandate. I understand the limit and why it‘s there, I just like to shoot more. I shoot both. They both have good as well as bad points. At times I like the “run & gun” of IPSC as well as the “tactical” side of IDPA that make me “think” not just blast away. Combine the two, throw in a few more guns, and you have “Multi-Gun” shoots. :D :D :D

    A bad day shooting is still better than a good day at work.
     
  6. ThaiBoxer

    ThaiBoxer Active Member

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    Rats, now I am tangled in your twisted web. You've a devious mind, BT. 8)

    Because IPSC saw IDPA had the right approach? Seriously, I have shooting experience only in local club IDPA & Steel Challenge, and I've only watched IPSC.

    Typical situation at our club matches is "shoot as visible", and if something doesn't fit the proposed scenario, we usually drag a barricade over to make it more plausible. It is incorrect to break cover to engage a target if it exposes you to another's fire. I'm OK with that.

    The preponderance of stationary IDPA targets is a problem. OTOH, they assess for accuracy better. Last match, they had the "swinging paper targets" among stationary no-shoots. What fun!

    Yes, that does sound goofy. We've done similar things, but it was a heavy bucket meant to represent a person who was down; never a briefcase, remote control, or fresh latte.

    I know, but they can't have a target on a track rushing you, would be cool if it was workable. I just look at the rules as a mental flexibility task, since there will be obstacles to overcome and problems to solve in any plausible "multiple armed attackers and it's just you and your trusty pistol" scenario.

    In general, IDPA emphasizes cover and tries to place value on "not getting shot by BGs". Real, hard cover seems to be scarce when I look for it on the street or in a building.

    Yes, I agree. I've been burned before because I carefully shot all required targets with my weak hand, when it would have been better to simply take the misses and finish much faster. I take a bit of pride in typically being in the top 3 for "accuracy"/fewest points down. About the walking, that is a drill that does get gamy, because at our club it often takes place in front of a row of steel at about 15 yards, and it is hard to move and hit those small steel sillhouettes. Guys often do "drag-step-pauses" while shooting, but we don't have real hard cases about penalties, they just tell you to keep moving. Our club seems to be fairly reasonable about shooting order. I do like being reminded to keep my legs/head behind cover, when I goof.

    IPSC is a cool pistol-shooting sport. IDPA tries to be a CHL type practice/game. It's hard to win IDPA if you approach it as a serious "gunfight training exercise", but I do like the emphasis on considering cover. Speaking for myself, in a real gunfight NOT getting shot is more important to me than how many BGs I correctly double tap. To that end, I can see the value in shooting fast rather than shooting accurately.

    I just have this thing about accuracy.

    Cheers,

    Ben
     
  7. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    i'll agree with everything you said. particularly the part about ipsc introducing production class in response to idpa.

    it's nice to hear that other idpa clubs aren't as rule/penalty oriented. to me, idpa felt like a pickup b-ball game... with refs. you'd drive the lane, make the shot, and then let them tell you everything you did wrong.

    and the cover thing... it's definitely hard to shoot if you're taking hits. but as you point out, when walking around, good hard cover can be hard to come by. i've always been of the "good offense is best defense" type, so it never made sense to me to take hits while finding cover instead of trying to stop the hits from coming in. this is what i've always said to the idpa fans: "you go find cover! i'll shoot the bad guy!" just joking ofcourse!!

    by my understanding, idpa pushes the walking thing because in ipsc, you RUN from target to target. this can turn into a foot race, not a gun race. but in my gunfight, i fully plan on running if need be. so it kinda seems gamey to make me walk.

    i just don't think either can truly prepare you for the real deal. they're both VERY gamey. but i truly do enjoy hearing other shooters rationalize why one is better than the other. thanks for playing along!!

    others speak out!!! there may be new shooters reading this and perhaps we can drum up interest in a very fun sport.
     
  8. Wulf

    Wulf Premium Member

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    Dayam, TACO :evil:

    Coffee all over my spill proof keyboard cover...again! :twisted:

    Wulf <-- dabbin' away the coffee :roll:
     
  9. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    IDPA because of more emphasis on tactics and deemphasis on gear; but I'm not going to bash IPSC. Any practice is all good.
     
  10. FlaChef

    FlaChef Guest

    The real difference is this....
    IDPA shoots on Sundays, and IPSC shoots on Saturdays :wink:

    At least down in my neck of the woods, and we all know Saturday in the restaurant world is not a day for the boss to show up half an hour late because he was shooting a match :roll:
     
  11. revchuck

    revchuck Guest

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    I shoot both sports, and both are excellent when done well, and lousy when done poorly. I was a match director for my local IDPA club for about three years, and have shot at state and national level in IDPA; I've got one major USPSA match under my belt, with another one coming up in two weeks.

    IDPA tries to replicate self-defense scenarios; USPSA has consciously distanced itself from defensive use of firearms to make itself more politically acceptable, to the point of tacitly discouraging shooters from carrying to matches. That doesn't mean that folks don't carry to USPSA matches ;), just that the management discourages it.

    Problems arise at IDPA matches when courses of fire aren't put up against the "that's stupid" test, like the requiring of walking towards bad guys shown above, or when SOs decide to impose their own rules of "tacticalness" on shooters rather than IDPA rules. Both of these situations usually occur at local matches, where the SOs may or may not be certified, and where the rules may or may not be followed. They rarely happen at major matches. Even at matches that are well SOed and run by the rules, some folks just don't like IDPA rules, and fuss about them. :roll:

    Problems arise at USPSA matches when the course designer is a dedicated shooter of XXX class, and puts up CoFs that suit his/her mag capacity and/or sight system. 50 yard plates are pretty easy for an Open shooter, and tough for everyone else. Since I shoot Revolver, you can guess what I think about eight round arrays....about the same thing that a Production shooter would think about Revolver-friendly CoFs. And then there's the shotgun stage designed by a guy who had just set up his 1100 for speedloaders, where you had to start with an empty shotgun! :evil:

    Shoot both sports. If you don't like the courses of fire, tell the MD that you'll set up the match next month. Shooting in IDPA and USPSA isn't like going to the movies, where you pay your money and get entertained; they're both dependent on active shooter involvement.

    Quit yer bitchin' and get to work. :)
     
  12. drsmith58

    drsmith58 New Member

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    IPSC and IDPA

    I’ve only been shooting about a year, been to 4 IPSC and 9 IDPA and this is what I have noticed. The IPSC matches generally have more targets and are longer distances. The stages are consistently 22-32 rounds counts. I remember one stage in a match that was 13 steel and 5 paper 23 round count, 2 of the steel were 3” mini-poppers at about 15 yards, and 2 more of the mini-poppers the look like small bowling pins beyond those. Another stage, different match, 17 paper and 3 steel. The guys with what I call race guns (dot sights, scopes, compensators) made it look easy; most of the production and limited class had to shoot extra rounds on those stages. This is also something that makes it tough for me, sometimes on the longer shots it is difficult to see the hole and there for I’m not sure if the shot was a good hit or not. And this is embarrassing to admit but on reloads I have forgot which target (paper) I was shooting and skipped a shot on it, kills your score (miss -10 penalty points, plus 0 points).
     
  13. dlaroe

    dlaroe New Member

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    Both IPSC/USPSA and IDPA are games but IDPA seems to be more "defensive" in nature. Having not been in a gun fight, I can not say anything beyond that.

    My first match was an IDPA match. It was nice to have very detailed rules to follow telling me exactly where to move, how to kneel and in what order to shoot the targets. After that experience got me hooked on shooting sports, I started reading and practicing. I chose to become a member of USPSA, the US region of IPSC and I haven't made it to another IDPA match since. Not from any moral or religious position but if I'm going to make it to a range some weekend I'm going to choose to shoot a USPSA match. Due to time and money constraints, it is pretty much one or the other. Well actually neither for the last 7 months, but that is another story.

    I see Production as a response to high priced race guns and a place for cheap 9mm ammo in an otherwise "major power factor" sport. If it wasn't for Production, I'd be shooting Limited/Minor. I've done that before to experiment with the slightly different global IPSC Production class rules allowing for full capacity magazines and my scores were not that much better.

    There seems to be room in either sport to complain about the rules. Personally, I like to hold myself to my own conservative interpretation of the "spirit" of the rules. It probably helps that I'm on a budget but I'd like to think that if I had the money I wouldn't be milling sights into the slide and buying $300 triggers. The person that beats me may have those things. However, I've shot a gun like that and it didn't make me faster.

    At every USPSA club match I've been to, the military guys, LEOs and IDPA guys have been totally welcome to shoot a stage with whatever tactical mandate they see fit. I can remember several instances where this happened and the only thing ever said was one guy was asked to remove the second gun he had on him in a shoulder holster. I just hoped I'd be faster than the guy using his duty rig and was really impressed when I was not.

    USPSA has its share of poorly designed stages and strange props, the Texas Star comes to mind. As a Production shooter, I will never complain about revolver friendly COFs, I've seen too many revolver shooters painfully working their way through a field course obviously designed by an Open class shooter thinking only of his 29+1 magazine. I totally agree with what revchuck said about shooter involvement. That is one thing that sets the organizations apart I think. There is no limit in how involved you can become in the USPSA, you could theoretically be elected to run the entire organization if you had the time and talent. I am unaware of how a IDPA shooter gets his feelings know to the administration.

    One interesting thing to add to the mix is that USPSA is taking steps to hold on to what remains of its martial/tactical heritage in the face of some pressure from IPSC. USPSA has promised to hold a few IPSC style matches every year and make it easy for its clubs to do the same. IPSC is trying to advance shooting sports on the global stage and has to contend with governments with different ideas about armed citizens. Human shaped targets with heads and tactical situations don't go over so well in those countries. IPSC may have rubber chickens, the Texas Star and no-shoots instead of everyday items and a bobbing and weaving adversary ducking behind cover but there is a short imaginary distance between the two. USPSA is attempting to hold the line where it is here in the US while still staying a part of IPSC.

    USPSA and IDPA have more in common than football and baseball and there are plenty of people who play both and maybe even a little soccer or IPSC once in a while.

    -Dale
    USPSA# A-55351
     
  14. Polymer Proselyte

    Polymer Proselyte New Member

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    I don't know much about IDPA, but IPSC is fairly well established in New Zealand.

    I think the main benefit of IPSC is that it allows me to own and shoot just about any type of pistol. Let me explain, here in order to have a pistol licence you must be an active member of a club. You can only purchase handguns that are suitable to the type of club shooting you are doing. If people weren't shooting IPSC, CAS, NRA we would be limited to owning .22 target pistols.

    So i'm really thankful that IPSC is a global sport, and thanks for inventing it too.

    You guys are also lucky to have a choice.
     
  15. midtnshooter

    midtnshooter Premium Member

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    I believe everything has been debated and then some and I agree with both sports. I currently shoot IPSC and would have to join "another" club to shoot IDPA. I have all the intentions because when I'm out in the free world working. I see bad guys all the time. First, I don't have my race gun ready at hand, but I do have my Steyr. I can not put it a regular in-pany holster because sometimes I have to lay down and work on my side while laying on the ground and the holster would make my hose run. Actually I'm a dude. I just wanted to see if anyone reads what I write. I carry a Maxpedition conceal bag that looks like a chicks purse for a special forces comando (black). I practice shooting from this bag in many different situations. I lay down, kneel down, get down :party: , and IDPA would iron out any unforeseen training I might over-look. IPSC allows me to concentrate on running, shooting and evaluating my obsticles. This training has given me the ability to pull any weapon and place the bead on my target quickly. I only wish my club would start a IDPA, but due to the land owners (we shoot every second weekend, Sat and Sun), I don't think they want a full month of gun shots.

    Man, This is one thread I really like. I talk to IDPAs and they call us Jesse James. IPSCs call the others boring. I think we should do a Rodney King and ask if we can just get along and avoid the LEO As*whooping. :silenced: :D

    Thanks for the discussion. I like threads that make you think, make you learn and sometimes Pis* off the neighbors.

    http://www.craigcentral.com/idpaipsc.asp <-- Here is a good comparison link.

    Plus if anyone of you have ever seen a "Texas Star" hold up an old lady, let me know. I'll start carrying my IPSC pistol.


    Thank you,
    MTS