double action and double taps

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by bigtaco, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    i have a theory.

    the reason we shoot double taps today is because officers carrying double/single guns needed to practice the transition from double action to single action. no point firing 3 or 5 rounds. just two to complete the transition.

    what's the point? everybody in handguns shoots double taps. why? and is it the magic number or is it snake oil?

    some people might think that one good clean shot isn't good enough, better use two. which could be justification to practice always firing two shots. double tap practice could also be the justification for always firing twice. you can see this circle keeps going.

    some people might think two shots are enough, because it's just engrained during practice to fire two shots.

    should we practice drills with other combos? triple taps, draw fire once. body and armor drills with three on the body?

    does distance come into play? a twenty-five yard shot requires a pretty good recovery time for the second shot. a cadence of less than a second will almost always result in an errant second shot.

    i've been told that when an attacker is absolutely on top of you, "shoot him to the ground". it might take more than two.

    thoughts?
     
  2. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

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    when I practice, I usually focus most on slow, aime shooting, using the sights and squeezing the trigger. I do this for 2 reasons. It conserves ammo and I am a shotgun shooter. When shooting shotguns you instinct shoot (at least I do), not using the sights, and you pull the trigger. So I dedicate most of my shooting to the opposite of that. I also practice distance, ~30 yards, same slow steady pace. Lastly I will do a couple of move and shoot drills, crouching, running and instinct shooting, with a tactical reload. I usually never double tap, and I know if someone was on top of me I would empty the mag.
    Maybe people practice it for recoil control?
     

  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I vary my practice. I am not a subscriber to the "double tap". It is valid practice in that it works on quick recovery, but there is no saying that 2 rounds will do the trick. It wouldn't be good for someone to become so ingrained with the idea that they fired twice quickly and then paused no matter what. I will often draw and fire 2, 3 or 4 times. Sometimes I will draw and fire until lockback and then practice a quick magazine change and come back for 1 or 2 more. And, of course, practicing slow calculated single shots to work on accuracy and technique.

    "Glock 'till they drop" as they say. I will stop firing when the BG drops and stops moving.

    This is a practice I developed nearly 20 years ago, as a kid, playing paintball. You never stopped firing when you hit someone because maybe they'd get lucky and it would bounce or maybe they'd pull a fast one and try to wipe it off. You fired continuously until they other guy started yelling "I'm out, I'm out, I'm out". Then there is no doubt and no going back.
     
  4. FightDesigner

    FightDesigner New Member

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    No time for a real answer, but here's a few quick points:

    Need to practice follow-up shots of some sort- first shot may not do the job... heck, it may not even hit.

    Many public ranges won't allow anything more rapid-fire than a double-tap... and some don't even allow that unless you're a member.

    There are many variations laready: Google Mozambique drill, for example.

    If you get into IDPA competition, they'll have you doing all sorts of combos.
     
  5. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

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    Never knew that. Of course, I dont go to a "range" anyway. One of the nice things about nevada :)
     
  6. bigtaco

    bigtaco Active Member

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    i guess i was looking for more thoughts on the relationship between double taps and the existence of double/ single guns which have different trigger pulls between shots one and two.

    even in idpa the standard count is two rounds on a target. just thinking about how this came to be. and i think the double/ single guns have something to do with it. the need to adjust to the different pulls.

    i've done a bit of idpa but i love the higher round counts of ipsc. i end up shooting idpa matches twice because i want to fire more rounds.
     
  7. FightDesigner

    FightDesigner New Member

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    I think it's more a question of lining up the sights after the recoil of the first shot that's the trick to work out... exact trigger pull seems more relevant to precision target shooting than real combat training, but I'm no expert.
     
  8. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    I think double tapping might be a law enforcement imperative, but not a practical real combat strategy...lets face it, a LEO will go through quite a bit of review for shooting anyone......review boards etc....

    Many top shooting schools won't teach double tapping at all on a single target, but rather a shoot until the threat is neutralized......I dont' think it has to do with trigger anythings.........maybe with the double/single triggers, but since Glock type triggers have taken over most law enforcement, trigger pull is more consistant and first shots are more accurate....

    Multiple targets require a different strategy, depending on who you choose to train with, will be your chosen mode of operation.....double taps make sense on multiple attackers....just don't stop shooting somebody, till you know your safe !!!
     
  9. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    I should clarify the point that double tapping might have started with double single trigger guns, but has evolved to encompass standard practice......but I'm guessing too, somebody out there in law enforcement must know how and why they trained double tapping....
    did they do it with revolvers too?????
     
  10. Matches

    Matches New Member

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    I know most gunshot wounds are not fatal. I think it's something over 80% are nonlethal. Knowing this it seems common sense to use multiple shots to atleast incapacitate if not kill an attacker/threat.

    Matches
     
  11. FightDesigner

    FightDesigner New Member

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    I will say that at least with the last (not current) version of the shoot/don't shoot simulator that the Washington training facility uses, if you just shoot an armed perp once or even twice, they will still keep shooting you for a while. Definitely gets the idea across.
     
  12. madecov

    madecov Active Member

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    My training is to shoot until the threat goes away. That could be one round, it could be two magazines.
    I'm not stopping until I'm out of ammo or the threat is nuetralized
     
  13. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

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    Hell Im not stopping if Im empty! I'm gonna throw the magazine at him, the gun, my shoes, and anything else that might stop him...
     
  14. FightDesigner

    FightDesigner New Member

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    ...and hope that when his buddy steps out from around the corner, he'll be too busy laughing at your unarmed, barefoot, shirtless self to care... :lol:
     
  15. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    :lol: fortunately here in Florida, you don't have to hang around after a shooting legally speaking.....you can run from his buddies, barefoot or naked to the nearest police station........
     
  16. FightDesigner

    FightDesigner New Member

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    A little cold for that up here these days. Maybe if I shivered fast enough I'd be a hard target.
     
  17. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

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    Not to go off topichere, but if I was in Florida I would rather save my bullets for the gators! I only been there once, but DAMN! they were EVERYWHERE!!
     
  18. Shooter

    Shooter Premium Member

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    Seriously though, in Fl. you don't have to hang around if you get into a shooting (legally), their could be some of his friends hanging around heading your way.......retreat to a safe place, get your story straight, call your attorney on the card you always carry for CCW and report the incident.......call the police and ambulance in there of course......but leave the scene if need be........
     
  19. ministerofdeath

    ministerofdeath New Member

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    Shoot to kill.

    There is a theory that a double tap that is so closely grouped will not register with the BG target after the first hit. In other words, the body will only register a single hit and will be less likely to shut down from shock. Navy Seals train to spead out their shots if possible to cause the body to register more hits through its nervous system and shut down. However, you should not stop shooting until you are convinced that the target is down or the situation requires you to engage other targets. Remember that there is always a strong possibility of another BG comming at you.

    If at all possible put a third or final round in the head and shut off the lights for good. I always tell my girlfriend not to stop until the BG's head is strawberry jam.

    Just my Two Cents.
     
  20. RiceCakes

    RiceCakes New Member

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    That ads a lot of scariness to situations like that. Ive heard stories where guys on pcp would take shots in the gut/chest and just keep right on coming. Make me think I'm fighting a zombie 8-O