Christians and deadly force?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by xjrat, Feb 5, 2007.

  1. xjrat

    xjrat Premium Member

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    I just ordered the book" Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self Defense" http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1960 I can't wait to read it, but in the mean time, how do you christians feel about deadly force? I am a christian and have been thinking about this when I came across this book.
    So how do you feel about deadly force, protecting yourself and others? Spiritually and Theologically what do you think, how do you justify it to others both christian and non-christian?
    Don't get me wrong I believe in my protection utmost, but to play devils advocate :twisted: so to speak, shouldn't we rely on God's protection? Isn't God able to keep us safe? Wasn't Jesus a turn the other cheek guy? Would the disciples have been Steyr packing guys? What about them being martyrs(true martyrs, not bomb strapping fools) should they have fought back physically?
    I hope to get some good honest feedback from all sides and people. I would even love to hear from non-christians too.
    "edit- also ccw as well"
    Thanks
     
  2. midtnshooter

    midtnshooter Premium Member

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    Really good question. I too am a Christian and have thought about that. When I was 13 years old (many years ago) my brother while in the Navy rode ontop of trains. It was a thrill ride, but a way to get into town for no charge. He slipped under the train and his life was halted at that point. My life to changed from that point. I became rebellious and constantly asked why God did this to him and me. I later understood that he didn't. My life would have been different if his death would have not happened. Now listen close. If he would have lived, my children would have been born.

    I would not have started taking drugs and decided to become a disk jockey. Move to a town far away from home. I would not have met this girl, got married and had two beautiful children.

    Now lets progress years later. I was held up twce and both my reverse anger and God taking card of me, I lived. The third time I might not be as lucky.

    You can hold off getting a CCW, cause I'm not going to sell you that idea that everything will be fine. But, wouldn't you want to equalize the odds for your survival, not for yourself, but your family ?

    The death of my brother devestated me, truly crushed me. God, let's us make our course of life. But it isn't just God that protects us, but situations. Maybe those situations are God.

    A friend of mine ( a pastor) carries. The Bible states, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER. But God expects you to protect the innocent.

    Take Care,

    MidTNShooter
     

  3. squirrelpotpie

    squirrelpotpie Premium Member

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    wow xjrat,

    What a great question.
    Have been wrestling with that question for years and still dont have a definite answer. Seriously considered joining the service when I was a teenager but eventually decided I didn't like the idea of killing someone because somebody else thought it would be a good idea. Especially if that someone was someone like me who was just following somebody elses instructions. It all seemed fairly senseless at the time and I did not sign up. Figured if I was going to kill someone I needed a better reason than "somebody told me to".

    So, how do we reconcile "thou shall not kill" and "love thy enemy" with killing people? My fiancee' is a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) and as a group they are pretty much opposed to the notion of killing people for any reason at all and have a long history of being concientious objectors and "peace activists". Met that fellow Tom Fox that was kidnapped and killed in Iraq last year. He seemed like a nice guy who really believed in what he was doing - even if it could cost his life. The group that he worked for asked that no violence be used to secure his release and refused to consider any attempts to extort money and thus contribute to the cycle of violence.

    When working in mental health for a lot of years, I had to occasionally restrain individuals who were intent on doing physical harm to other individuals and I believe it would have been wrong not to intervene in those situations.

    In our world, we have situations where people are recklessly killing other people by blowing them up and they frequently claim that they are doing so in the name of Allah/God. If these people think it is ok to blow up Gods children than I do not believe that it is Allah/God that they are following.

    And I think it would be wrong for us not to intervene if someone is killing or trying to kill or about to kill the people in our lives. We have a responsibility to protect them from harm.

    If we sit back while our family and friends are being murdered we are not showing love for anyone. Allowing people to kill people while we have the means to prevent it does not show love for them or the people they are killing, it only encourages them to continue killing people.

    So, sometimes violent intervention is necessary and hopefully the survivors (if any) and other would be assailants will have learned something in the process and have an opportunity to reconsider what they are doing with their lives and the impact of their destructive acts on themselves and others.


    John
     
  4. smores

    smores Guest

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    I'm not a Christian, and I don't really follow any religion (I believe there is a higher power or something but I haven't figured out that part of my life yet). Although, I do believe in living a good life, treating others fairly, and being a productive member of society I guess you could say that's karma). In my state it's practically impossible to carry a handgun unless you own a business or work for the police or a security company. However, we have police everywhere. I can't go down to the beer store (about 1 mile) without seeing at least one or two cruisers on the road.

    I enjoy shooting mainly just for target practice, and I think guns are pretty neat pieces of machinery. I don't really see the need for me to have a CCW because the area I live in and work in are relatively safe. I walk to my car from my house (about 20 feet). And when I get to work, I walk about 400 feet through a busy shopping center and luxury apartment complex. The areas are well-lit and I never feel unsafe.

    However, my house has been broken into once, and one of my cars has been broken into twice, so I keep weapons at home. Also, I'm just making sure I'm prepared in case anything really bad happens (I live near D.C.). If revolution or a terrorist attack happened, I'd be ready. Although I realize the chance of that, or a break-in or armed robbery happening is VERY VERY slim (highly unlikely), I feel that I have a right to protect my life and the lives of my family if we were threatened.



    I would only pull the trigger if I knew it was the only option. If someone comes in here with a bat or something, I'm sure a guy sliding the action on a Mossberg 500 would convince him/her to reconsider whatever it was they planned on doing in my house.
     
  5. Kokitron

    Kokitron New Member

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    It changes everything...

    The moment you choose to pull that trigger your life will never be the same. It doesn't matter if you are a christian, muslim or hindu. If you take a human life you are signing up for a rough ride. At some point you will come face to face with the concequenses of your actions.
    Knowing that it was you or them is the only thing that makes it bareble.
    May our God never challenge us with these circumstances. Be safe and well.
    K
    Ps: If he does, the Mossberg 500 sounds like a good partner.
     
  6. ronny44

    ronny44 Guest

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    Really good question. I too am a Christian and believe that God gave us many things in our life. I will love those that hate me but will do every thing to keep the people that I love from harm. I have a ccw and hope that I will never need to use a firearm but I have no problem with the use of force to stop an attack.
     
  7. charmincarmens

    charmincarmens New Member

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    Sword

    Jesus said(take your cloak and sell it,if you don't have a sword,get one) LUKE.
     
  8. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    What would Jesus carry?

    When I was looking for a Scripture to use as a signature on the Steyr forum, the first pistol forum I joined just a few months ago, I found the one I use below: "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace." Luke 11:21.

    Paul also said that a man who will not provide for his own family is "worse than an infidel." If I won't take measures to protect my own life and the lives of my loved ones, not to mention our property, I'd be a poor Christian and even a poor human being. And the most precious possession we have is our own lives. I believe that as Christians, we have to be prepared to use deadly force to repel deadly force. There's a time for turning the other cheek but as Solomon said, there's also a time and season for all things, including shooting back or even shooting first in defense of yourself and/or loved ones.

    I've been saved since 1977 but not until 9/11 did I begin to consider whether I was well enough armed to protect my own from the unspeakable horror of terrorists invading our homeland, the first time this has happened in the history of America. I sawed off my 12 gauge pump Ithaca to a legal 18.5" and bought my first pistol, a S&W 10mm.

    But another recent event, a stalker threatening my daughter's life, prompted me to consider it was time to get a CCW permit and buy a pistol better suited for carry. I settled on the M357-A1. You don't think such scary crimes can happen to you and yours until they do happen. If any generation has ever lived in more perilous times than ours, I can't imagine it. And perilous times call for due caution and preparation by all sensible people. And as Christians, we have an even higher duty to withstand evil with good. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, Edmund Burke said. I, for one, will take my stand against evil, armed with my 357, 10mm, 12 gauge double-ought, or whatever I have.
     
  9. Although some could make the case that Christians should be pacifists there are many passages in the bible that would suggest that self-defense of yourself, others, and even property is viewed by God as not guilty of murder.

    If we look at the Old Testiment we see many instances where God condones certain acts such as when David slayed Goliath.

    In Exodus the bible states that God would not view it as bloodshed to kill a man who had broken into your home at night to steal. Now certainly if God would not consider it bloodshed to kill a man for breaking into your home and trying to steal he wouldn't consider it bloodshed to kill a man to protect yourself or your loved ones.

    In the new testament in Luke Jesus tells his disciples to get a sword and although he is upset when Peter takes a sword and cuts off a Roman's ear when they try to take Jesus it is more an issue with Peter trying to stop something Jesus had stated must happen.

    Code:
    Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
    I think if Jesus was to come today he would tell you to sell the clothes off your back to buy a Steyr. Maybe thats why they are so cheap right now at CDNN...its a sign. :D
     
  10. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Here's an excellent article on the subject.

    source

     
  11. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Amen, brother Andrew Scott, preach on.

    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Make mine 357 Sig and 10mm. And an extra box or two of 12 gauge double-ought buck, too, please. Amen.
     
  12. xjrat

    xjrat Premium Member

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    \:D/ Wow you guys are great! I love the feedback. This discussion is good I love to learn and I love the fact that there hasn't been any flames on this thread it shows that there are people honest enough with themselves to contribute and to learn. THis is a GREAT club and I am proud to be a member. I know I am not above anyone else christian or not, I know we can all learn from each other. So keep it going...
    I feel that we as responsible citizens of the U.S and those of us that are christians have a duty to protect ourselves and others. I do fully believe that it doesn't go against my love for the Lord, I do though sometimes wonder if I don't have enough faith that God will protect me "all" ways. I think of the missionary in a hostile land, who relies on God for EVERYTHING including his safety. However we do live in a fallen world and there will always be something out there that will want to do us harm, either man or beast.
    A missionary has the right to defend against attack from lions and other creatures as well as those who would do harm to the people.
    I know that God has given us the ability to learn self defense be it karate or guns or just the ability to know when a situation is not right. Also I believe that if some one has the intent to harm or kill an innocent person then they have stepped out side of God's will and are acting according to the flesh and in many cases in the bible God gave the command and permission to guard against that.
    Thank you guys for the verses, stories and input I also believe that we should be ready always to give witness and testimony for what we believe and why we do, especially when it's something as controversial as gun's.

    ps. I know this was long I just realized that I was rambling It is late and I am tired, so didn't meant to go so long. Sorry :oops:
     
  13. SELFDEFENSE

    SELFDEFENSE Premium Member

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    I am a contributor to the Saint Gabriel Possenti Society (Patron Saint of Handgunners) and have no conflicts re: self defense.
    http://www.gunsaint.com/
     
  14. Netfotoj

    Netfotoj Premium Member

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    Very interesting. I knew the Catholics are far bolder than the average Baptist when it comes to defending the lives of the unborn (otherwise known as the right to kill babies in the name of a woman's right to choose) but I didn't know they were also out there with the NRA defending our right to tote pistols, too.

    I guess we need to start us up a chapter of Baptists for Pistolas.

    Great story about Saint Gabriel Possenti blowing the little lizard away to stop a whole army of hoodlums in their tracks and save the whole village. Reads like one of the NRA's "Armed Citizen Saves the Day" news reports.

    And he used up one of his two single-shot pistol rounds on the lizard. I guess none of those hoodlums wanted to see what he could do with his only other pistol round. Gives a whole new meaning to being accurate with your first shot. Let's hear it for Saint Gabriel! O:)
     
  15. charmincarmens

    charmincarmens New Member

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    I read it last year,and it is pretty good reading.Any one out there that wants to read it,E-mail me and I will send it to you.