Caracal Catastrophic Failure

Discussion in 'Caracal C and F Series' started by babj615, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    Interesting story developing about a Caracal C slide fracture and separation during live fire.

    Thought some Caracal owners may be interested...

    Original Thread Here.

    EDIT: The purpose of this post was for informational purposes only, and not intended to dissuade anyone from the Caracal brand. I am very eager to receive my replacement Caracal CQS and look forward to doing more business with Caracal in the future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  2. blueorison

    blueorison New Member

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    So many things to say about reading that forum LOL

    Not enough internets space. :D
     

  3. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Moderator

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    Hmmmmmm...

    Insha'Allah we will get to the bottom of this. I would like to see Caracal perform an autopsy on this gun and release some formal explanation for the failure.

    EDIT: Reading further into the thread, there seems to be good reason not to blame the ammo (I'm still not ruling it out, though). Still, anyone who works with machined parts knows that you're never safe from manufacturing defects - heat treatment is tricky and you do get bad batches. This is definitely a disconcerting report, but I'd need to see a few more before I start to sweat. Caracal should take care of this guy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  4. WayneJessie

    WayneJessie New Member

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    Caracal will have an uphill battle to gain a marketshare here in the USA. Even a successful launch of a new weapon here is no garantee in a crowded market. It could have been ammo; it could have been the gun. After a sweeping national recall here in the USA it may not matter.
     
  5. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    I agree. Based on the information available, it would appear to be a defect in the slide, and not related to ammunition.
     
  6. mlk18

    mlk18 New Member

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    I didn't read the thread, just looked at the pics. Was this guy shooting his way out of a coffin buried under 6' of dirt or something? That gun was caked in sand, clay, mud or something.
     
  7. WayneJessie

    WayneJessie New Member

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    The slide just did not look like a typical KABOOM. The way it separated looks like a bad slide. I predict this will go away quietly into the night. If the owner of the gun stops communicating about the issue may indicate the outcome.
     
  8. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    The answer to your question is well documented in the linked discussion. If you really want to know, read it.
     
  9. stvan

    stvan New Member

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    Not a good year for Caracal. Once they work their way out of this I would still give their guns a look though. They are too interesting to ignore.

    Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk 2
     
  10. BoreBrusher

    BoreBrusher New Member

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    Why is ammo ruled out? I am not going to read through the 11 pages of the pak.guns forum but why are folks here ruling out ammo? I am not thinking a 'kaboom', I am thinking an overloaded round that put major recoil into the slide. And then one of two things happen; 1) the recoil force itself breaks the slide or 2) one or more of the metal guides in the polymer frame fail and the resulting off-access torque breaks the slide.

    I understand it might be the gun to blame, but why is the ammo ruled out? He is using cheap Chinese ammo, acquired in Pakistan. It's hard enough to get consistent quality on Chinese stuff here in this country where one event like this shuts off that Chinese company from the US market forever. But this is Pakistan. Add in Pakistan they counterfeit everything including whole guns. This could have been Chinese brass reloaded in a Paki sweatshop, which explains the deal he got. Pakistan is not a place to go bargain shopping for stuff that goes 'boom'.
     
  11. babj615

    babj615 Premium Member

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    Ever seen a Caracal? Not put together like a Glock, but more like a Steyr.
     
  12. mlk18

    mlk18 New Member

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    So you had the time to make that two sentence comment but it was gonna kill too many brain cells to offer up a one sentence explanation? Brilliant.
     
  13. doctordoctor

    doctordoctor New Member

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    My dad's Ed Brown went POOP on him and they MADE him buy a new slide WITHOUT returning his ruined bad slide... They said it was his fault because he used Herters ammo in his Ed Brown that his slide died on him. They charged him $800 for a new slide and would NOT return his original slide so our gunsmith friend (Rick Usleton) could look at it. Anyhow we saw them at the Shot Show last year and they actually called security when we confronted them about it and stealing my dad's property (his old slide he bought and paid for). So it was either buy a new slide or have a nice ed brown paper weight. The Ammo excuse is BS!

     
  14. Syntax360

    Syntax360 Moderator

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    Lose the attitude. If you're too lazy to read the first-hand account, your input here is not welcomed.

    That actually was brought up. Someone said there was a controversy when a bunch of police received Glocks and traded them for cash + counterfeit guns. It has been suggested that the entire pistol was a counterfeit.

    Possible, but unlikely I think - machined and heat treated parts are subject defects.
     
  15. ETH77

    ETH77 Premium Member

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    Having read the PAK thread and looked at the pictures, my thoughts are that it was a defect in the slide. It appears the slide may be a MIM module, could anyone in the US verify this? The reason I ask is that there are what appear to be bits of something near the slide in the picture with the parts displayed. If it isn't machined steel, then quality control of the metal injection moulding process is critical. Powder metal metalurgy works for some things, others not so much.

    The barrel is in one piece and doesn't look distorted. The edges of the breech lock still look sharp. It simply looks too me as if the slide failed in at least one place, possibly both at the same time. Most probably the thick section on the left first (the rearmost) and then the second, smaller section as it couldn't hold the thrust alone.

    Just my eyeball guesswork, I can definitely be wrong about it.
     
  16. WayneJessie

    WayneJessie New Member

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    I remember watching a video of their factory floor and it showed them machining the slide from a block of steel. I don't know if the block was cast,billet, or other.
     
  17. coolbox

    coolbox New Member

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    I have fired around 2000 rounds of the Chinese ammo in question, the Norinco 311 ammunition, and found it to be very accurate, consistent within a batch, and reliable. I have not had a failure that I recall. It is pretty hot, kicks like a mule. Sellior and Bellot 9mm in 124gr and 115gr is much milder. Norinco is 115gr, and I recall someone giving a chrono report of 1300+ fops out of a 4.7" barrel. Some of my shooting threads and reviews on this forum indicate use of this Chinese red box.

    I personally know Abbas, the admin at Pakguns. He has helped sort out the matter between the parties, or at least got Caracal to respond to the matter. He is the one who performed the 1000 round torture test of the Caracal F about a year or so ago. I do not visit Pakguns much these days, but I can vouch that they are a decent community in their own rights. Abbas has done a great job in getting gun enthusiasts on a platform. It is a world much different to the what you know from the war on terror. Not as advanced and active shooters as in the West. but Not what one gets to hear about Pakistan. Not everyone is alike, and specially what is mentioned on the media is not always reliable info to make a viewpoint on. I do agree that there are many noobs and armchair experts on that site, but... And please, the term Paki is offensive to us. I dont know if people are aware of this fact! We are Pakistanis and prefer to called as such! No offence to anyone here, but I believe this forum and the environment here is the place where I could let my voice out.

    Back to the Caracal failure, the slide gave up on recoil. What caused that is not pin pointed. The barrel is not showing any signs of a kaboom. The guys who verified are Moeen, who is a competent smith, and his his own shop, as well as Skeeter60, who is ex army, and is still involved in developing and accurizing rifles and ammunition with them. He is also a reloader, and one of the best shooters ever from Pakistan. He is 65 now..

    The matter might end after a trip to Dubai and compensation for the grieved party, or may not. But it is failure to be vary of, in my opinion.
    MODS, please do not consider my post offensive, I didn't mean any. Only explained a few things..
     
  18. Jubal

    Jubal New Member

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    I am by no means an expert on catastrophic failures, but one thing that crossed my mind was an ammunition defect that would prevent the round from seating fully, but just enough to allow the gun to fire. With the tremendous pressure produced by the shell and it not fully seated............just a hypothesis...I wonder when this happened if the mag was blown out at the same time?

    Coolbox, thank you for your insights and letting your voice out, and I am glad to read that kkhan8's brother will be ok.
     
  19. WayneJessie

    WayneJessie New Member

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    Thanks for your insight. I cannot see ammo leaving the barrel pretty much intact and splitting a slide in two. It almost appears that the slide metal was too hard and cracked like cast-iron. Caracal will do right by those involved. Now one has to wonder if the release of replacement guns as well as new stock guns will be postponed here in the USA.
     
  20. jhb

    jhb New Member

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    I'm a member at pakguns, joined in december and stayed quiet and just read until the caracal failure.

    Thanks coolbox for spreading insight into pakistan culture over here. I have found a bunch of those fellows are very knowledgeable and are very friendly, even to a know nothing florida boy like myself......and that speaks volumes to the open and friendliness toward other gun enthusiasts on that forum. Course y'all tolerate me here too.....so......

    I thought ammo initialy, but changed my mind quickly when I saw the clean break pictures.

    Oh and the first pics on the dirty gun.....op's gun broke, piece hit his brother, he got hurt, dropped gun in the dirt. Was rushed to hopsital hours away.